Loras

I have a quick question about this chapter, someone previously mentioned that GRRM uses exposition to catch the reader up on what the character has been up to until that point. It tends to be the first chapter of each book is a recap as to what happened previously, a good example of this is the first TYRION chapter. My question is WHY does GRRM feel the need to recap the events of DAVOS I at the beginning of this chapter? He mentions being abandoned by Sallador on Sisterton. This type of exposition isn't very common throughout the series. It might be due to where the chapter is placed in the book. Perhaps there are a lot of chapters between DAVOS I & II. I don't know though, something gives me the impression from this reading that this is an opening chapter....

I'd like to second The hairy bear's thanks for all the effort that you guys have put into writing this summary. I get quite a sinister vibe from this chapter, but I really like where the Bran story is going. Does anyone else think that Hodor getting used to being warged by Bran is a little creepy? Especially after the way that warging another human is put across by Varamyr. A question about warging: Does Varamyr's conscience move across to one of the other wolves now or is that him dead? Thanks again guys!

Yeah the chapters are the same, but I am sure that the cover of Spectra Pulse said that the chapter was an abridged version.

[quote]i'm pretty sure it's not online at all, as it would be a copyright issue. though people have posted some very detailed summeries.[/quote] Yes, the chapter is online at Amazon.co.uk under the sample section... it says something like "want to read a sample?" click the link and there it is. I have to say that I don't think that this is the whole chapter, but it is some of George's best work to date - I felt so sorry for Theon. I'd say this chapter is right up there with "The Princess In The Tower".

Thanks [b]Bronn[/b] for this in-depth synopsis of the chapter. One thing that I find particularly interesting, which hasn't been discussed yet, is that one of the Lords asks Ramsay why they brought Theon before them when they were eating. If Ramsay wanted Theon to help him to bring back the bride then why not just say to Theon privately? I think that Ramsay is sending a very clear message to both of the lords that this (Theon) is the fate which befalls those who cross him... which very interestingly links back to a point made early in this thread that Ramsay wants to use Theon to 'scare' the Ironborn in Moat Cailin. My gut feeling is that TFM's timeline is correct.

[quote]One obvious reason to bring Theon, of all people, "to war" with him is for some sort of stratagem or emissary against the remaining Ironborn garrison of Moat Cailin. They might have a hard time recognizing him at first, but there would be an intimidation value: 'this is what's going to happen to you'. OTOH, isn't the garrison so tiny at this point that there's hardly any point in being so sneaky? Maybe there is because MC is so hard to take, and the Ironmen will be much warier than the Northmen that they took it from were.[/quote] I thought that it was pretty easy to take MC from the North, does Catelyn not mention that in the first book because she thinks that it is almost impossible to take it from the South. I wouldn't see it as a reason to use Theon anyway, why not use a captive who looks even worse than Theon if you are trying to scare someone? Also everyone believed that Theon Turncloak killed Bran and Rickon when he said he did, but there was no proof that the bodies were the Stark kids; why would this be any different other than the Stark kid in question is living this time rather than dead?

[quote]First off, Theon doesn't know that but presumably Ramsay does (unless this chapter takes place _before_ the Red Wedding, and before any chapter in AFFC), and it's Ramsay who is making the decision. And secondly, isn't Theon's word basically worthless in the north at this point? Admittedly it goes against the Greyjoy interest, but I think most northerners would sooner conclude that Theon was turning his cloak again to ingratiate himself with his captors.[/quote] But isn't Ramsay going to do both anyway, I mean he now (potentially) has Karstark and Ryswell, who as Northern lords should be able to recognize Arya Stark, their ex-princess. I don't think for a second that Theon is going to be the only person used to prove that Arya is the real Arya, because if Theon said she wasn't the real one then that wold be it; but if Theon was the only one of a number of council members who said that Arya wasn't real then his word wouldn't mean anywhere as much. Theon doesn't know that he (by rights) is King of the Isles and the North, but would the fact that Balon is dead be another reason for Ramsay to remove Theon from the dungeon? The problem comes with the fact that Theon isn't dealing with Northerners anymore, he is dealing with Stannis Baratheon. But if you have a northerner (Karstark or Ryswell) and an ironborn (Theon) both saying that this person is the real Arya Stark then that is going to carry a lot of weight. We just have to hope that Theon can reveal the truth, as his mental state in this chapter suggests otherwise.

[quote]Umm... maybe. But while Ramsay is not necessarily as deft as his father, why would he choose Theon Turncloak, murder of Robb Stark's heirs and traitor in the eyes of the north, to verify the identity of Arya Stark? He's got other Winterfell servants around; he could just as easily have brought one of them along (after cleaning them up, of course). He's the least trustworthy man to the people the Boltons need to convince. You might as well resurrect Joffrey for the task.[/quote] Maybe the reason is that he is a Greyjoy, an heir to one of the other kings? SO if Theon verifies that Arya is Arya Stark then it must be so, Theon doesn't know that Balon is dead at this point. I like how GRRM has continued the trend of naming the chapters by how the character sees themselves, first with Sansa and now with Theon, so I hope by the end of the book we get a Theon chapter. I can't wait to get back inside his head, it sounds like a very different chapter from those we are used to. Can't wait to read it.

[quote]Getting back to the question of what Alliser Thorne will do now, I think it's clear that Slynt, although Thorne's friend, made a hugely idiotic decision by openly scoffing and disobeying Jon - I don't think Thorne does that anymore. So Slynt really had it coming and Thorne will probably use Jon's tough display of authority as a way to rally disgruntled black brothers behind himself in secret.[/quote] I think an awful lot is said about Thorne in the fact that he goes for the hilt of his sword, but after realising that Jon has Longclaw with him, thinks twice about the measure. It shows that Thorne has some kind of begrudged respect for Jon and I think that his latest show of command, the execution of Janos Slynt (I'm sorry there was too much pleasure taken in writing that), will bend Thorne more towards Jon. While they are never going to become best friends I think that they will end up working together now that Thorne can see that Jon is capable of command. What I think may be more significant is the fact that Pyp was present when Jon confronted Thorne, we have seen in Sam I (AFfC) that Pyp is disgruntled with Lord Snow and I think this is going to push him even further. I have a theory that Pyp will teach Jon that he needs to retain some kind of humanity as the book progresses. So we are all agreed that this is going to be Jon II, does anyone think that there will be another chapter between this and the next Jon chapter that we have spoilers for? I just feel that we have more to learn from Mance Rayder before he is killed off... maybe the chapter between Jon II and Jon III will be Melisandre I, where we will get a scene between the Red Woman and Mance, I think I'd kill for that.

My main question about this chapter is: how much time passed between Jon giving the command for Slynt to be hanged and the hanging to take place? My main reason for this being that if very little time passes then it can hardly be a spur of the moment decision because Jon had to have a 100ft long rope prepared in advance. I think that Jon had planned for this turn of events, I think this could be the defining moment where he 'kills the boy' in the eyes of all the doubting watchmen. Another question: Was Melisandre in this chapter at all? We got Stannis' reaction but I think it would be much more interesting if we could compare it to Mel's reaction. What an awesome chapter though!