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Loras

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  1. Depending on how much time passes between Tyrion 1 and Tyrion 2. We know that in Tyrion 2 he can’t see the naval engagement (but he can hear it). Tyrion’s location hasn’t changed which implies that the location of the ships has changed (from being visible to being invisible). He should still be able to see the ships further out in the bay though (again depending on where they actually go to see the ships in Tyrion 1). I think it would make sense for Victarion to try and draw ships away from the main body of the Yunkish camp. He doesn’t know that Ser Barristan is going to attack at dawn, so surely he would want to draw away as many ships as possible to reduce the size of the force that his fleet would have to face? Announcing themselves as a ‘weak’ target kind of makes perfect sense if that is indeed the plan. The Yunkish would, in that situation, send some of the fleet over to deal with these interlopers - due to pride. Similar to the way that the Meereenese nobles sent a champion to deal with Dany’s siege. When that initial fleet is damaged by the Ironborn hidden in the merchant ships, the Yunkish would be forced to invest more of the fleet to defeat them. I agree that it is Victarion’s fate to die in battle. The tentacles are often speculated to belong to Euros Greyjoy though and so it feels like there should be some kind of reckoning between the two brothers. I also don’t think that the ship can be destroyed by dragon fire in the middle of the bay because Victarion wouldn’t have bloodied his axe yet and Moqorro needs to get back to the mainland somehow! There is another naval battle to come though between the Iron Fleet and the Volantene fleet too. But you are right, it’s tricky to predict when his death is going to come - but likely that it will. I feel like we may need a separate thread to speculate on the Battle By Fire though! :-)
  2. And this is where is gets a little bit confusing for me - there isn’t an element of surprise at all. The only surprising thing is the Ironborn clambering out of the hulls when the slaver fleet gets close enough. So they have to be displaying banners to provoke some sort of interest from the slaver fleet - but which group of ships are displaying which banners? Or are they displaying the kraken and the dragon (and if they are, wouldn’t that have been a better thing for Tumco to point out to Ser Barristan?). So this kind of makes sense: Wulf’s fleet displays dragon banners to provoke the Slavers - who probably wouldn’t recognise the kraken banner anyway? - and Victarion displays the kraken. I feel that this would make some sense in terms of recognition of an enemy. However, Tyrion is very clear it is the Ironborn in his second chapter. You’re right, something doesn’t quite add up here. One of my big questions is why is Tyrion assuming that they are Ironborn in the second chapter if they aren’t displaying kraken banners in the first? It’s a long way from home for the Ironborn - and Barristan also reflects on this in the second sample we have from him. Hopefully this year :-)! This is exactly when I’m expecting it to happen too. I’m expecting the dragonhorn to be a major turning point in the battle - where things start to go wrong for all three viewpoint characters. If anything, I think that the horn is going to make the dragons a little crazy - not being able to tell friend from foe. I think we, the audience, needs to see how dangerous the dragons are - and Tyrion certainly does - to really give us cause to think about the role the dragons are playing. I’m not sure that I’m anticipating the end of Victarion Greyjoy just yet - there are still a number of hanging threads after Vic 1 that I don’t expect to be resolved quite so quickly. I’m expecting full on action after the horn is blown... Tyrion and Jorah running through the burning camp to rescue the hostages, Barristan and his lads trying to keep their seats as the dragons create chaos, it’s going to be like something out of a war movie. Let’s go for five, I’m willing to concede. Then there is the assumed Vic chapter between the Barristan chapters bringing it to 6. I’m expecting at least four chapters after this to form some sort of resolution to the battle, I’m not sure Vic will get another one after the dragonhorn. But Tyrion hasn’t even starting fighting yet - so I’d expect at least one chapter of that - and things haven’t gone awry yet for Barristan so I think there is more to go there too. I think the battle for Meereen could end up being the longest single battle in the series when all is said and done. Im expecting Winds to be released in two halves if I’m honest. How that split is carried out, I’m not sure. The other thing to mention though is that these chapters are significantly shorter than the majority of the chapters in ADWD (the battle ones specifically) - so chapter length might not be the best way to determine how full the book is. That said the remaining samples are all roughly the same length as an average ADWD chapter.
  3. Sorry that I hadn’t read your post closely enough! Though it is nice to have independently come up with the same chapter order! >.< I decided to reread Tyrion II because I was feeling very underprepared for this discussion. One thing that I noticed was the number of references to the Ironborn throughout the chapter. Maybe Tyrion I does have to end with the Ironborn reveal? I am a little confused by Victarion’s plan though, from Vic I, I don’t really understand whether the taken non-warships are meant to be displaying the banners or not? I’m assuming that they must be due to later events - but I had thought they were going for the element of surprise? The other things of note though is that Tyrion says that some of the ships are still far off in the bay - and we know that Vic isn’t in the first wave of the attack? So maybe the second Vic chapter occurs after Tyrion II? This battle is going to be really long! I’m not sure I would count Vic 1 as a battle chapter but Tyrion 1 and Barristan 1 are for sure. It’s going to be much longer than the Blackwater and nothing has gone wrong yet... Surely the dragonhorn is the game changer?
  4. Something very similar happened with ‘The Kingbreaker’ and ‘The Dragon tamer’ at the end of ADWD. Despite chronologically Quentyn’s chapter happening before (and during) and ending before Barristan’s chapter, it appears after it in the novel. I think your right with regards to the pace - I am ready for the battle to begin properly at the end of Barristan I, that moment is epic - so I would like this chapter to be the one that runs directly into the battle chapters. I think Martin could employ the same device as I mentioned above - I think it would be much more effective for a chapter that is effectively about Tyrion trying to convince Ben to switch sides, if the ending is actually about him running out of time... almost like he has run out of turns in Cyvasse... the gates are opening and the battle is beginning. For me, the ships are not quite as relevant to Tyrion’s story (yet) as they are to Barristan. It also depends if there is another Victarion chapter in there... Possible order: Victarion 1 - Night before the battle Tyrion 1 - Ends with the gates opening Barristan 1 - Ends with his speech and dawn breaking Victarion 2 - Naval engagement? Barristan 2 - ends with the ships reveal? Tyrion 2 - ... ends with the white dragon. Maybe my order doesn’t really work because of the placement of that second Victarion chapter? I put it there to break up the Barristan chapters.
  5. This is a really good point, the arrival of these ships contradicts the plan that is outlined in Victarion I. Vic's plan was a sort of Trojan horse style thing with the holds of the ships being packed with Ironborn, IIRC. Perhaps a more appropriate ending would be Jorah bursting in to tell the Second Sons that the gates of Meereen were opening? Does the second Barristan chapter not have a very similar ending with regards to the arrival of the Iron Fleet? I think that would need to go into the first Barristan chapter? It would upset the pace of the battle I think?
  6. I think it’s fairly likely that there will be a number of short chapters to make up the battle itself... we haven’t got to the sounding of the horn yet which is something I’m expecting in the second Victarion chapter (but as far as we know hasn’t yet happened in the timeline of the battle). The only issue that I have with your proposed order of chapters is that the Barristan chapter ends at dawn, but there must be light for Tyrion and the Second Sons to see the fleet approaching? is that just a continuity issue though?
  7. I guess a lot of this is based on speculation about what Tyrion’s ‘Winds’ arc is likely to be. I just feel that the two are a little ‘samey’ or static especially given that in the second chapter, the battle is raging around the Second Sons camp. This could be due to not having read Tyrion I though. I think two shorter chapters would work much more efficiently in terms of pacing the battle. The three set up chapters followed by shorter battle chapters. It seems deliberate that Martin has his characters reacting to the same events to establish chronology within his structure.
  8. Do you think that the Asha fragment is from her first viewpoint chapter in ‘Winds’? If so, there will be lots going on in the chapter. This is something about the distribution of viewpoints that I find really challenging in the early parts of Winds. I don’t see Asha escaping without Theon (she has a broken ankle too), and I don’t see Theon escaping some sort of reckoning with the Boltons. Coming back to the topic, I don’t really know much about the opening Tyrion chapter. I feel that the second chapter could be just as effective an opener as his previous one? Although that could be bias against these Tyrion in the Yunkish camps chapters. I really hope that Martin doesn’t make any major changes to the Alayne or Arianne chapters!
  9. This is a good point, especially if Asha is the viewpoint for the execution of Shireen Baratheon. Martin does quite like mirror imagery in the first and final chapters of a character’s arc in a book. I’m not sure whether the Theon chapter is a good refresher - it’s really complex. Particularly when it comes to the Karstark plot - though it is a shame that this plot wasn’t resolved in ADWD because I think this payoff is quite complicated for the opening chapter in the ‘Northern’ arc for the novel. It requires you to remember a lot of information about the Karstarks from ‘Dance’.
  10. I disagree about the Victarion chapter. The battle of fire is going to open the novel and one of the big payoffs during that battle will be the sounding of the ‘dragonhorn’. I think it is important to re-establish those relationships, items, and characters prior to the battle. One of the things that I’ve been wondering about with the discussion of ‘Theon 1’ is whether there would be an ‘Asha 1’ that will be used to re-establish Stannis’ camp and all the characters that takes place before the Theon chapter - one where she comes up with the idea that she introduces at the end of Theon 1?
  11. I completely disagree with you, and your posts on cancel culture do not reflect my view. The idea that someone should not be challenged because they might withhold something that you want is wrong. If people feel that someone should be challenged about what they are saying on their platform or due to their platform, it is legitimate and shouldn’t be trivialised. Being an apologist for someone’s behaviour because you think that will prevent you from getting something that you want - I invite you to reflect on your post and how it comes across. This is a forum, and there will always be different views and discourse around a number of topics, but for me, the above post is moving towards offensive. George has apologised for the Hugo’s and I hope that he has reflected on the criticism. As a professional, I am sure that it will have no impact on his ability to deliver the next book in his series.
  12. Does anyone know whether Martin will be doing a reading as part of his appearance at Worldcon?
  13. I agree that The Green Grace wants peace on her own terms. But then, all of the characters want things on their own terms. Interesting. I’m not sure I agree that The Green Grace should be dead, religious war would aggravate all of the Ghiscari based cities in the region. I agree that the slavers should be destroyed, but Dany doesn’t have any other economy to support the city - this is mentioned again and again in her chapters. Without a trade economy Meereen would die too - she doesn’t really think about how to build a new economy in her chapters. Absolutely, he isn’t a good guy. He is a shrewd businessman, he bought all the pits and persevered until they were open again. He may not be an important figure in the conspiracy theory, but he is the king of Meereen. Do you believe then that Skahaz is a ‘good guy’ (relative term) and his recruitment of Barristan into the coup was for noble causes? Restoration of Daenerys’ power? I’m asking because I think that interpretation of this specific character’s motives really changes the way you view Barristan’s arc in Dance is.
  14. I think it’s really hard to say. I think it is significant that we only get into Jon Connington‘s head after he has found out about his terminal illness. He knows he has a limited time left, but admits that he doesn’t know exactly how long, and wants to accomplish his mission. It would be entirely natural for Jon to grieve for himself as well as all those that he has lost around him. Rhaegar, Myles, and Elia are the three main figures from the past that he reflects on - though two significant ones are missing in the shape of Lyanna (who we think Elia will remind him of) but the other is Rhaegar’s best friend, Arthur Dayne. Jon is surely jealous of the relationship that Rhaegar and Arthur had. Acceptance and jealousy are not exclusive though. The way that he remembers the wedding “all too well”, implies that he still hasn’t really dealt with it. It is only after the wedding chat that we get this indication of Elia being unworthy, which he links to offering children and general health (Jon couldn’t offer children either). Jon is definitely jealous in some capacity of Elia, and it seems recalling the wedding is a bitter pill to swallow for him. Jon absolutely knows about Lyanna, he must do, as the Rhaegar vs Robert thing is reasonably well known. He is also likely to give us more information on Lyanna being crowned at Harrenhal. Identity remains a major theme of the story, as does power and where it resides. Aegon’s story really encapsulates these two themes. George has carefully constructed a story arc where one of the characters is in the same position as the reader in trying to determine whether Aegon is the real deal or not. Unfortunately for Arianne, she will have significantly less information than we do! I don’t want George to definitively tell us that Aegon is real/not real - but for us to make up our minds as readers. Ultimately we will have to see if we make the same decision as Arianne or not. We also haven’t seen anyone challenge Aegon on his identity yet. @Curled Finger refers to Aegon as a ‘manufactured character’, and I think that’s pretty perfect. His entire life view has been constructed by those around him, how will he cope when that view is challenged. I think we saw some insight when Tyrion schooled him at Cyvasse, but challenging his actual identity is considerably greater. I think that Illyrio’s reckoning will have to be with Daenerys rather than Aegon, particularly if the Tattered Prince remains involved in that story. Though I would expect more clues that Aegon COULD be his son. These are all great questions, I think that Arianne will ultimately declare for Aegon. I think that her arc for this novel will have to revolve around her making a decision that will decide the ‘fate of Dorne’. She is an incredibly complex character in her own right, growing significantly in ‘Feast’. The answers to these questions probably deserve a thread all to themselves!
  15. His pride is definitely one of his character flaws, but I don’t think it’s fair to say that he isn’t devoted. He is absolutely devoted to Rhaegar’s shade - his silver prince. The melancholy of his failure of Rhaegar permeates through both of his chapters, he wants to do well by the man he loved. I think that is entirely relatable and admirable. I don’t think we know enough, yet, to dismiss Jon as not particularly clever. He intends to take Storm’s End through guile and seems to be having a very successful campaign in the Stormlands. He also must show some talent to be promoted to Hand by Aerys and brought into the conspiracy by Varys. As for honour, he jumped into the waters around the Sorrows to save Tyrion Lannister. I hope that GRRM doesn’t reveal the truth of Aegon’s identity, because it is a central theme of the novel - it doesn’t matter whether it is true or not, it only matters in terms of the riddle. Arianne’s relationship with Aegon and Jon will be really interesting to follow in the next novel. I think we both agree that Dorne will declare for Aegon - but I’m expecting the ‘dragon’ ‘war’ raven thing to be a key plot point. To be fair - Arianne did say that she would be willing to share with a Sand Snake to Arys Oakheart... I think that Jon had some level of respect for Elia, but when he thinks about the bells tolling he doesn’t include Lyanna. Pure speculation- I think that Jon is likely to have accepted the Elia relationship because of social convention but he would be very unhappy with the Lyanna relationship. Was he jealous of Lyanna? The Harrenhal tourney will surely be fleshed out further. Perhaps we will see a mirror with Aegon - a marriage to Arianne but an ‘affair’ with Elia? Something like that.
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