gogorath

Season 4 when they were bathing with Selyse.

Smoke baby was pretty damn real. Melisandre definitely plays some slight of hand, but there's real magic there sometimes.

Whether the source is what Mel thinks it is is another debate.

Wow. The burning was one of the most uncomfortable things I've watched... ever.

You know, part of writing a good story is having consistent characters. Stannis saying how much he loves his daughter in one episode only to burn her a few episodes later is not good writing. I knew her death was foreshadowed but for him to just make that complete heel turn was ridiculous. He Selyse said it was a good idea then changed her mind like 30 seconds later. Wouldn't it be better for him to refuse, and go into battle anyway? Maybe win than come back to see that Mel went behind his back? Maybe lose and come back broken and desperate?

The world is full of stories of people sacrificing the ones they love.

While I think D&D could have made the desperation of the situation either clearer or more desperate... there's really only two views of Stannis that make all that much sense, given his actions. Both love their daughter -- they aren't inhuman. But that love is secondary.

The more admirable version of Stannis is probably the religious believer and utilitarian. This version of Stannis believes he is a chosen leader sent to save the human race -- and he must do everything to do so. Even burning unbelievers. Or Mance. Or killing his brother. Or burning Shireen. Or abandoning the Wall because his men won't make a difference there -- he needs the whole kingdom. For this Stannis, it's a matter of killing his one daughter now -- or watching the entire human race die soon after. Not much of a choice, is it?

The less admirable version is a stubborn and bitter man who was always angry at being the dutiful second child and never being rewarded. He was never loved, not even by his brothers. He was not made hand or even given Storm's End. And when it was his turn -- everyone else tried to take it from him. Melisandre and her power is the means to an end. He is strict and untractable with others, but never seems to punish himself when he breaks the rules in search of more power -- adultery, assassination, murder. He abandoned the Wall when they had fifty men and the White Walkers marching because all he's ever wanted is the Iron Throne. Perhaps he has even lied well enough to himself about his motivations.

I think either version is consistent with his actions. I think a mixture of both is as well. But both are capable of killing Shireen. Even in his lovely scene with Shireen, it was weird how much he focused on her role as part of House Baratheon, as HIS son... there's an element of pride there even in his attempts to save her. A hug or two does not mean he won't do awful things. Take a look at a police blotter -- I guarantee you parents who beat, molest or kill their children have tons of tender moments.

Stannis could never walk away. He chose to go to war over a throne -- and doomed tens of thousands to die because of his rights. He's not a magnamimous man.

Lotta Nerd Rage votes here.

I gave it an eight.

Burning Shireen is completely within Stannis' character, but I thought they could have laid out the desperation of the scene better.

Daznak's pit was fine but hampered by the effects limitations and fight choreography. I never felt like people were much in danger. And Drogon was much less impressive.

Dorne is a waste of time, but at least it was a pretty waste of time.

Loved the Stannis and Arya storylines.

@Kimim

Yeah, if the after credits convo, Benioff confirms it was the Night's King. He actually says it kind of casually too, which made me laugh.

I mean, the dude is wearing a crown. So I doubt he thinks he's giving much away.

Same with the Valyrian Steel = Dragon Steel = Effective against White Walkers. Is this a shock to anyone?

What a fantastic episode. Got back to actually tying into the emotional side -- scary scenes, atmospheric scenes, a move away from the rational plotting and into just some fantastic stuff. And the action sequence was great.

You can tell the trolls from the fact that the polls still gets 1s and 2s. What a great episode from start to finish.

Really liked Tyrion and Jorah, Sansa's awkward dinner and Dany and her dragons.

Otherwise, a little slow and wasn't enthralled. Nothing particularly bad ... just nothing that got me super excited.

The Sand Snake scene was pretty terrible. Littlefinger's logic for bringing Sansa to the Boltons and leaving her there is inexplicable.

I gave the episode a 10/10.

It doesn't matter that those two things were true. Awesome Stannishug. Fantastic fight sequence and a fitting end for Barristan (who was clearly not going to get his Dance storyline). Tons of R+L=J.

Much like last weeks, I thoroughly enjoyed it despite some obvious flaws. So what? Tons of fun.

+ Viper

+ Sansa

+ Opening Wildling Raid

+ Missandei and Grey Worm

- Dany and Jorah

9/10 because I save the 10s for something super special.

You StanStan/"Dany r whytewash'd" people are fucking ridiculous. The showrunners include Dany crucifying the slavers (and even acknowledge that it was unnecessarily cruel with the Barristan bit), yet you nitpick and find the most trivial shit to complain about, BECAUSE HURR DURR THERE'S NO WAY I'M GONNA LET D&D BE RIGHT!!! Scene was rushed, it's a conspiracy! Give me a fucking break. Stannis is my favorite non-POV character and I'm no fan of Dany, yet some of you make me feel ashamed of calling myself a StanStan.

I'm just gonna leave the rate (9/10) and forget everything in this thread before I start using the ignore function.

I also don't see how she was whitewashed. She did still put the Masters up, right? Barristan asked her for Mercy and she rejected it in favor of "Justice" or "Revenge" depending on how you like to think of it.

What did you people want? Ominous music and a shadow of Darth Vader hovering over her? A celebratory dance number extolling the virtues of Stannis?

That's a strecth. Everyone who's butthurt over Stannis needs to calm down and wait for episode 9.

Yeah, I don't understand people's thing with Stannis. Someone claimed whitewashing (you keep using that word; I do not think it means what you think it means) and others are outraged because he watched the burnings.

He showed no particular religious fervor or joy in the burnings; that was Selyse. Book-Stannis is someone with little use for religion that doesn't advance his goals; but I fail to see how Show-Stannis is different. Book-Stannis is lawyerly in his ability to pretend to be following a strict code which seemingly morphs at will to what he truly wants. Again, Show-Stannis seems to be going along with this part of Melisandre because he wants to be King. What's different?

Love the King's Landing stuff -- the writing and execution to set up the Murder Mystery was great. The evidence is all there but not super obvious (although so many book readers ran to the internet to post screen shots pretending they saw this real time with no help, no one is likely unspoiled at this point). Almost every character had their motive highlighted.

The rest of the episode was really "leftovers from episode 1." There may have been some loose ties to Joffrey, but overall, to be a 10, it needed to be a bit more cohesive and be equally strong across the board. A 9, though -- the death was fantastic.

Thought this was clearly the best of the Episode 1s.

I think they've learned something about introducing characters and establishing character arcs for the season. One thing that has been lacking for their writing is giving the audience some sense of where things are going -- the signals don't have to always be where you end up, but in a show like this, if you don't give the audience a sense of a character's arc as it starts, it seems meandering.

Here, in almost every storyline, they said "This is what this season is about" and did it both obviously and in a subtle manner. We know what Oberon's about. We know Jon's arc is about Mance lighting the biggest fire the nothing has ever seen (and about how some of the wildlings aren't as nice as Tormund). We know Dany's story will be about Meereen but also Daario.

We know Tyrion's trying to distance himself from Shae and what's going on with Jaime. We know what the Tyrells are up to. We know that Arya is heading to the Twins, but more importantly, she's heading down a path of revenge.

Some people will think of this as transparent, but when you spend only an hour with each character all season...it's just necessary. It's clarity and it creates tension and anticipation, rather than bewilderment.

And for the most part, it was elegantly done.

10. One of the best episodes ever. Almost perfect.

I thought the writers had/did only take GRRRM'S writing into account.

George wrote the episode, but scenes are often moved from ep to ep or added, etc, when you are putting the whole season together. For example, the Bronn-Hound scene was written by D&D.

Sorry, but the poison scene with Cersei and Tommen was only the TV version. It's not in the books. That was my favorite episode, though.

It's worth noting that that episode, and so very likely that scene, was written by George.

I thought it was pretty obvious the word spoken was likely "sword." Something like "Jaime" might have made sense. But 90% of the theories were ridiculous.

Glad to see Martin chose something that actually made sense as opposed to some completely ridiculous, forced theory.

Gave it a 9. Really enjoy Alan Taylor's work.

Unfortunately, the only thing I struggled with was the effects in the ending - I was neither overly impressed with the dragonfire or the White Walkers. I would have preferred the latter stay off screen. Jon's sequence was rushed as well, but everything else was so wonderfully done to me it still hung a nine. I haven't rewatched yet; I may be more tolerant of the effects then.

Absolutely horrible. Worst yet. I pride myself on having a high tolerance for the tv show changing certain elements, but was there a scene that was faithful to the book at all in this one?

This was just....really really bad.

Just by virtue of your reaction to this episode, I think it's pretty clear you don't have a high tolerance. Not saying your opinion doesn't count, but cmon. There were plenty of changes, but most people are not having this reaction.

The Throne Room scene, for example, was pretty darn close, even if you are a perfect literalist. Most of the other stuff outside of Jon and Dany were thematically consistent if not with every single detail (Arya and Jaqen, Tyrion and Varys before Shae comes in, Theon and Lewin, etc.). Your level of tolerance for the small details is showing there.

It's weird how any rating less than 10, not even an 8 or a 9, is deemed "too critical". Wow! Easy folks.

I think most of this is cause by the fact that we all have a different scale of what 1-10 means.

What's the comparison set? All TV? Other HBO series? Just elite TV like Mad Men, The Wire, The Sopranos, Breaking Bad? Just things I watch? The emotion you felt when you read the books? Full scale Hollywood movies?

What's the criteria for a 10? Someone previously said it has to be perfect for it to be a ten - kind of the gymnastics type of judging. Others don't start at a 10 and subtract -- they allow for positives to completely outweigh negatives if the positives are awesome enough to them.

What are you grading and what's your focus? Fidelity to the books? Execution by the filmmakers and acting? Just the emotional impact it has on you?

For me, it's really hard to see someone seeing this as an "8" based on how I grade. For a television show, the battle execution was unprecented. If this battle was an eight, what does a show have to do to get a 10 portraying a battle? But perhaps someone else just doesn't care for battles, so it's hard for me to see the grade until I realize they really don't care about that. And while I thought there were things to be improved, no episode would get a ten if I did the gymnastic-style judging -- so I don't -- but some do. And that's fine, even if that means 10s are hard to come by. But for me, the battle scenes were so much better than I felt we had a right to expect, plus I thought the Cersei scenes were great, as were Tyrion's. The Sansa-Hound scene was just okay to me and the end was (deliberately?) a bit confusing, but that was all well overcome for me by the awesomeness.

We may actually agree on a lot of individual points, but may come up with different grades. And that's before even getting to places where people differ on how well it was done, period. But since each of us assumes our way of grading is superior, your "8" is freaking CRAZY. :)

Couple of quick thoughts:

I don't think Lena Headey was nominated for an Emmy by HBO, and I know Blackwater was not submitted (I think, because either it wasn't completely done OR because they didn't want spoilers out there).

But both are a shame. I think Lena has outperformed everyone this year -- Dinklage, Dance, Maisie, even Alfie, who has been #2 -- as the script has given her more to do. I've never thought of her as a great (or poor) actress, but she's really been fantastic this year and I wonder if my prior impression was lack of great roles (I haven't seen her in a ton).

And while this episode wasn't perfect, or even my favorite of the series (Baelor, for me), it was done very well, and it was something never before done on tv.

But, please, stop complaining about scale. Complain about pace, characters, whatever. Not scale. Season one had a lot of scenes that lacked it; the tourney, the hunt, etc. Most of that was budget. When you look at this season, the melee, Stannis' fleet, Blackwater... understand that the scale you want and remember from the books may only be really possible with the type of money they aren't going to spend. Complaining does no good. 99% of networks and producers wouldn't have even ATTEMPTED to show the battle. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

I loved this episode, but of course I love the series anyway. What's a bit annoying to me is..ok I might be entering troll territory here ..but: I am so sure if we were told this episode was written by someone who isn't GRRM, A LOT of people, -including Elio and Linda - would find so many things to bash. So many DOWNS and not so many TOPS. I can see how this board would be filled with "Cersei would NEVER say that!" "Varys giving a map to Tyrion lol, why do they think they are better writers than GRRM!" "Sandor and Bronn scene was SO WRONG!"...

My point is..all these people who are now saying "this is how you adapt" are annoying the seven hells out of me. All episodes have this much diversions from the books, or had managed to keep the spirit of books to this degree overall. This episode was not so different than others in terns of adaptation or diversion from books.

So very true.

The battle-based adjustments are understandable for the most part. The chain (and what it would take to make the chain awesome) is beyond prohibitively expensive; Stannis as fighter seems like a level of interest thing likely dictated by the fact that random Baratheon soldiers attacking is kind of boring.

But I'm curious to hear why the Hound was made to be nicer, and the interaction with Sansa less sexualized (at least from his POV) than in the books. Is it merely uncomfortable because Sophie is 16? Did they think the Hound would come across as completely awful? I'm not complaining; I always find the (usually very good) reasons interesting.

Not sure. Have to watch it a second time. My first impulse is that while the Cersei/Tyrion team was great, overall, it wasn't a great episode. I'm less confident the Jon storyline will be as good as the book -- as much as I like getting Ygritte early. And while I'm not overly worried about losing Weasel Soup, I thought they could have drawn that out better.

We'll see if I like it better at the 9pm PST showing.

Honestly, I think the whole sieres has been so heavy handed. Like really the smartest strategist in the seven kingdoms is gonna have a conversation about his plans in front of a cup bearer? And then realize shes high born and not look into it? SO NOT Tywin.

This plotline has not run its course.

Just like Stannis boning Melisandrae. They are carrying things too far from where they should be.

Did you really just say "bone"? Also, Stannis "boned" Melisandre in the books.

And bringing in strom content already just so we can see more jaime? Books or no books we all get it Jaime's a d-bag. let it go and focus on somethings that are important.

I gave this ep a 4.

Jaime's not important? What is important? While Jaime's failed escape attempt is a plot point that could be cut, it does serve some purpose, and it is in the book. Are you arguing for a less faithful adaptation?

This is a 10 for me. There wasn't a lot of action, but it filled my requisites:

1) At least two, if not more, mesmerizing scenes

2) Strong thematic elements

3) Couldn't believe how fast it went

4) No "bad" scenes

I really enjoy the character development and conversation scenes. Most of the time, I prefer those to action. Every once it a while, they are combined -- Ned's beheading, Theon cutting off Rodrick's head -- but in general, if I have to choose between a swordfight and two characters verbally sparring, I'll take the latter. This episode was in my wheelhouse then, and I can understand how people who prefer action wouldn't rate it so high.

Both of Jaime's scene, Arya and Tywin, both of Cersei's scenes... just nailing it. Wonderful dialogue full of thematic elements, well played exposition, humor, and terrific acting. There are subtleties in each, digging well below the surface. Cersei, when talking to Sansa, is more talking about herself than talking to Sansa. Tywin likes Arya and seems cuddly, but he still has her test his food for poison, is torturing men to death and orders Clegane to rape the countryside. Martin has always been great at creating this contradiction in ourselves -- these characters often do terrible things but they are nice to characters we like, or are charming, or have a reason (Jaime tried to murder a child for LOVE!). This episode had that in spades. Are we to feel sorry for Cersei? Do we forget what she's done? How petty she can be? Jaime? Tywin?

It was a Lannister episode for sure, and well done.

Well, I don't consider it an hour well spent. So, for me something was harmed: my enjoyment. I watch to see the story I love on TV. No other reason.

GRRM...has a very different personality to Alan Moore, who is pretty unique in many ways.

Thank you. That's all I wanted to know.