Dio Forel

I am all for criticism. The RW was the most powerful moment I have ever read. But you just sounded like the most uptight, cynical, closed-minded, arrogant & outright most irritating person I have ever had to read a comment from. Damn man stop nitpicking every single aspect of the show. THE WIND WAS SUPPOSED TO BE BLOWING WEST!!!! HER HAIR WAS SUPPOSED TO BE CURLY NOT STRAIGHT!!!! THE WEDDING SONG WAS IN A HIGHER KEY THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE!!!! This isn't the books!!! I appreciate some of the complaints, the lack of bannermen mainly. And the lack of Grey Wind action. 1) I agree I would've liked to see GreyWind attack Freys at the beginning.... but that would've made it way too obvious something was going to happen. They did show GW howling in despair later. 3) The big connection was between Robb & Catelyn. The warging capability between Robb & GreyWind was never really addressed so it would've been pretty random to see Robb all of a sudden warging out of his body into GW. And btw saying that GW's death was something barely cared for... yeah you are heartless. Who feels for a creature trying to break free & save his master getting shot multiple times defenselessly? With Arya to sit there & witness it? 5) Robb showed no confusion or despair? The entire time he was speechless, lost in the chaos... Yeah I know he wasn't frantic but he was completely dead inside & in shock. Why the hell else do you think he slowly rose and barely moved? As for Catelyn's death..... she doesn't say anything about the hair.... she THINKS it.... can you please try to comprehend the difference between a book where thoughts are seen textually.... and a TV show where that does not happen. The reason why so many non-book readers were so moved is because it was a MOVING EPISODE!! They aren't all uptight and stuck up with only ONE thought on what the episode would be like, bitching about any little thing different. This episode was phenomenal. I read the books multiple times.. and I have the ability to watch something on screen and comprehend it is a different entity than the source material it came from. I appreciated the similarities... loved the entirety of the episode.... and respected the changes as this is an ADAPTATION. Stop being so cynical and start treating this like a series that is, for all intents and purposes, a gift. Stop going into an episode expecting A, B, C, D then E to happen & just let the episode happen as it is. People like you are the reason this show could fail: you are so difficult to be pleased and refuse to just enjoy the damn show. You have to bash every little thing that is different to you. Pretend you never read the books.... I bet you wont be so critical. Sorry if that came off rude. But dear god I am so sick of seeing overwhelmingly insulting comments that are so clearly exaggerated. Sure there were disappointments... but to use horrible... and other phrases implying this was the worst episode of the series is flat out ridiculous. I don't know what shows/episodes you have been watching but you are out of your mind. The simple fact that you said GW being killed meant nothing to you just shows how up in the clouds on your throne ruling book Westeros you are... I don't care how it happened in the books... seeing GW trying to break free, right after seeing Robb is at his final moments, all while Arya is so close to reuniting with her family & almost close enough to get to GW.... thats compelling and absolutely painful. Block out ASOIAF, and step into the world of Game Of Thrones... both are amazing.... but they are two separate things. The show will never be the books... its physically impossible. But they've done a damn good job of an adaptation.

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The sex scene was necessary in this episode...Gendry is diligent, intelligent & responsible. But he is also a bastard that has spent his time making weapons.... on the run & having slight feelings towards Arya. Obviously a clear way for showMelisandre to put him in a vulnerable position is by means of sexual contact. This isnt the books, its HBO. How is this not expected?

Because she did notice... she reacted... and the stool was moved audibly. She noticed... and thats why I keep saying to people it is akin to not kneeling... She knew the stool was moved & he couldnt reach, heard the laughter... and only acknowledged it reluctantly when Tyrion pleaded for her to kneel.

Eh I have to be totally honest.. As far as I am concerned Tyrion has always been dedicated to his family because he is innately loyal, reluctantly so. He is ridiculed, scorned... and I see an affinity with Sansa. I do not in any way see him as her jailer. He is intelligent & realizes what can & cannot be accomplished. He makes the best of the situation at hand. Tyrion is diligent, strategic & tragic. His entire life would be the equivalent to present-day therapy/medication methods. I think his actions have always been admirable & respectable. Most other people in his situation would've discussed his concerns & regrets towards Sansa after bedding her. Tyrion didn't bed her. The sexual deviant he is held back from his urges. That, in itself, speaks volumes.

That was a Reading Rainbow moment... with Targ undertones which I liked.

lol exactly. Just like with the Theon... As a male... many, not so much me my girl would have my head, men tend to lose sight of reality & common sense when sex is involved. Theon trapped with a lunatic in a dungeon when 2 random whores appear... Yeah that sounds logical. However... the little head thinks for the big head. Same thing for the Mel scene. The way she made it play out I am pretty sure non-book readers saw her and thought that she was just an absolute sexual freak tying people up. That's why it wasn't a 2 second scene.... because a lamb that is stressed & suspects what is to come winds up tainted & toxic.

Same here. It matched perfectly with the naive character with delusions of strength that Sansa is on the show. This is Show Sansa not Book Sansa. She IS more sympathetic. She is NOT a bitch. It would be a continuity issue if she ended up not kneeling as a display of contempt.

> lol the forums have already been in uproar about the Sansa scene. > as far as the Gendry scene... let's be realistic. Those times were heavily sexually driven. Whores & bastards galore... medieval times weren't as prude to those themes as we are now watching on TV. Sex sells, and apparently sex calms before leechings.

He is a bastard living in the slums and on the run at one point then prisoner at another. Let's be honest... he's a young guy. Very easy to manipulate a young guy when sex is involved lol. Look at HBO's whole M.O. with this show.... nudity & sex for a lot of scenes (although not as much as some people make it seem). Passion is powerful, lust is mesmerizing.

We are all born nude you know... We shower nude.... we have sex nude (typically). This is an HBO series. ASOIAF has a lot of sexual themes in it. I am fully with you in not understanding why people get so uptight at the end of season 3 because of nudity. This is ASOIAF on HBO.... there are lots of non nude shows on channels like ABC Family & Nickelodeon that are available. The Mel scene was drawn out because she made the point that she wanted to make sure he didn't suspect anything. Clearly he didn't.

Sunday night's? Who is the proofreader lol.

I love the books.... but I am no Purist. Purists clearly need to pay attention to the episode. Sansa saw Joffrey, that maniacal little prick, take the stool away from Tyrion. She stood there fully aware the stool was taken away... knowing Tyrion couldn't reach with the cloak.... hearing the crowd laughing at Tyrion... and she kept her back turned to him. It was only when Tyrion tugged on her like umm hey please kneel down that she actually obliged. Then later he mentioned consummation and she breaks out the alcohol (which she only drinks when it is necessary). Then she goes on to say what if she never wants him in her bed and watches him pass out. Maybe she wasn't a blatant bitch about it but as far as I saw she knew very well Tyrion was being laughed at and stood her ground until he pleaded. Relax purists!

This is exactly what it was. Listen to the way The Hound was talking to Bronn about killing him, as if it was premeditated. It was clear he walked into that bar with every intention of taking him out.

Not many quotes have me laughing before I reply in rebuttal but this one definitely did it.. 1) The Jaime aspect... Just lol, are you out of your mind? Some little kid, A HELPLESS LITTLE KID, sees me kissin my sister.. damn I gotta preserve my love so I gotta brutally murder him so he doesnt tattle on me.... Dear god lol. I am so glad I dont know you where you consider the attempted murder of the equivelant of an elementary school kid a justifiable casualty to avoid people knowing he is hitting it with his sister. It is just as selfish (not greedy because how the hell is there greed involved in escaping prison) to kill your cousin to escape as it is to murder a kid so your acts of indiscretion go unnoticed. Ummmmmm be a man, if you are man enough to get with your married twin sister you can be a man and suck it up when a kid catches you in the act. Something tells me that if I was cheating on my girlfriend and some little kid sees me and I push him into oncoming traffic, a jury wont be like but wait... he was acting to preserve his love. Um no it was being SELFISH (you know... the word to describe killing Alton that you feel is so uncharacteristic) saying hey I dont wanna be caught I wanna end some little kids potential to have his own life to SAVE MINE AND MY SISTERS ASSES (again selfish btw). 2) Damn it with the Tywin character assessments. He isnt letting the girl run around free in the forests living in the lap of luxury. He is clearly aware she is an upper class northerner lying about her identity (he has alluded to knowing she is lying several times). She is more valuable alive than dead and it would come in handy to have her in a more confused and vulnerable position strategically. And again, he is having random conversation with the girl offering her food, not taking her on a vacation showering her with gold and gifts. He is ruthless to those that are of no value to him strategically or in any possible way. This cupbearer (yeah being his slave is some special honor that defies his character) has potential value and it would be very UN-Tywin like to pass up the opportunity to keep your enemies closer than your friends. 3) Is it really that big of a stretch Cersei losing it like this? She has clearly in the books been shown to be at odds with Joffreys decisions. She went insane eventually and her being tormented inside with what her son has become would be a logical precursor to her ranting and insanity to come... And how do you know she wouldnt cry? Logic dictates that a person who acts as she does very often is running from things she is battling inside.. You dont know her... none of us do shes a character out of a book. 4) She definitely acts like a strong independent wildling... She shows no fear or discretion in anything she says, basically mocking her captor. She speaks not like a whore.. but like a wildling. Shes crazy and in a lot of ways an outlaw. She was mocking the guy. I wont lie I havent really been a fan of this aspect of the show but I understand that a lot of it is for the TV crowd and entertainment value vs being loyal to the book storyline. I dont love it but I understand it. 5) Ummm what does it do as far as Shaes future role in the books? It further shows that there is the book series and the TV series and both have different arcs and demographics to please. It is being a purist to expect every single character to be the same as in the book. This is an adaptation. We cant complain about some changes that dont make sense because they are using the books as a foundation with some aspects nothing more. In conclusion, please do not say this is hate against critique or any negative feedback. I think negative feedback is just as important as positive feedback. But lets be honest this wasnt logical or articulate. This is another example of trying to seem like people welcome change then just go insane when its a change you didnt envision. GRRM approved all of the happenings in the show why cant we just accept that this show is NOT the books? I didnt go crazy loving this episode but I promise you there were no bomb threats made anywhere on account of my frustration that the episode deviated from the books.

lol itd explain why she was so uptight

Yes but its relevant because that ridiculously large amount of money enables the ability for more effects, more characters and props, more companies lining up to do work on the show and for the show, and the fact that people will be paying every single time they go see The Hobbit means more money to be made to compensate for the money spent. GOT doesnt have that luxury. And its a bigggggg difference between 70 million and 500 million.. lol its like the diff between a crappy 10k used car and a gorgeous 70k car... Ahhh if only this show had that kinda money to spend!! Of course with the Hobbit they have that other luxury of having lots of characters but basically it all revolves around one or 2 groups/parties. Its kinda like stuff is happening we just dont see it or care, unlike our GOT where we are part of 7048 diff aspects of the story... I cant imagine what LOTR wouldve been like if we hopped around from Rohan to The Shire to the Elven Forest and all different POVs back and forth.. itd be impossible to cover all that but LOTR never really focused on all of that. Those other areas and storylines were passing thru points and minor moments.... ASOIAF makes every aspect part of our experience and thats why its so difficult to put into a show or a movie. But wow if we actually had the time to show everything with more episodes and longer episodes.. thered be no naysayers... Well maybe a few but itd all be for good reasons, not for things thatd be resolved if we had more time and money.

Book interests are entirely different than HBO show interests as far as revelations... With thousands of pages we have more than enough time to worry about eye color and who a character really is and all these different mysteries to solve. There is no time to have a show progress in such a short amount of time and then expect it to benefit the viewer experience by including all these flashbacks and sidestories (sidestories with regard to the show because fact is we would never have enough time to be able to really enjoy the results). For those saying its not enough to say its an adaptation I just disagree. I agree with the frustration because there is SO much I would love to see on screen after my experience with the books, but I know the time allotted would never accommodate that notion. But the fact is a TV show has to have added elements to attract a wider demographic for this shows survival. Its not a book where you can survive with less readers and still finish the series... its a TV show that without attracting more and more people from all walks of life we will never come close to seeing the on-screen ending. Some changes just have to be made because we have no time for 20 POVs. Look how rushed it looked having what... 5 POVs in an episode? Some things have to be sacrificed. And look how boring Dany's storyline is in the books to the point where people almost murder eachother going insane on how little progress she makes so how would the writers of the show expect to have that little happen and keep viewers with a character like Dany people are now so enthralled with? They had to add story to her world or else we would all hang ourselves watching those scenes. And whats wrong with making some twists so that we, as readers, can have the potential luxury of watching an episode and not knowing exactly whats going to happen every step of the way. I love not always knowing where theyre going. Who the hell wanted to go see The Sixth Sense if somebody had the shocker ruined for them that Bruce Willis is really dead? The show is a twist on a phenomenal backing story. I dont want to have a checklist of 100 things and cross them off in order 1 after the order when they happen, I want the possibility of new things happening for us. Sadly I feel like the whole world of flashbacks and hidden meanings/prophecies is just way too much for a limited TV airing to convey so we will just miss out on most of it until the books address it all. Theres no care whatsoever about Jons mother on the show or figuring out the truth of a lot of things we go through in the books. It sucks but its expected. As for what happens with Alton, who cares? He was a made up character anyway. And it was NOT out of character of Jamie in the slightest bit. Jamie is an arrogant, selfish prick lol. He did as is expected for his own survival. With Cersei saying Joff is a monster basically but then saying oh yeah why would she call if he is killed? Theres a little bit of a difference between saying yeah my son has turned into a sadistic a*hole and saying I dont care if my son is murdered. The negative here I feel like is just the whole season, we came into this season expecting some greatness about the direwolves.... but where the hell are they? Wheres the warging concept? We could certainly benefit from using more time on showing these storylines.. In conclusion... enough anger that the show isnt as epic as the books.. There is not enough time for the epic to be told on screen, and never will be. The second we accept this is the second we can sit back and just enjoy the show. I dont recall hearing people care about the variations to X-Men or Avengers as venomously as ASOIAF readers seem to care about the differences here. Accept the very definition of "BASED ON". My main concern here is making sure GRRM finishes our books. These shows are a great way to get me through my time waiting. Be happy guys... its not like the writers butchered the show like Eragon got butchered ruining that phenomenal series. This is a great show.

"...No it's not brilliant. And it makes zero sense. What would Ramsay be doing in the Iron Islands? Also, why would the other Ironborn accept him as their own, as if they'd known him for a long while? Do you people actually think these things through or... o_O" Agreed... that is not an arc that needs to have a character like Dag replace Ramsay, or have their roles merged into some synergistic new character plotline. What. I just... ah.... I just can't believe there are people like that. Wow. Inconsistent characters, plot holes, gratuitous sex and lazy writing > ASoIaF. Okay... I disagree that the storyline on the show is surpassing GRRM's story, but this is TV not the books. We dont have thousands upon thousands of pages to have a story depict every single facet of ASOIAF. We have minutes/hours to try and show some sort of semblance to the story GRRM told. Inconsistent characters are only because on screen certain things must be changed to carry the story. Plot holes are inevitable because there is just no realistic way to follow the true story in such a small amount of time. Gratuitous sex is fine with me. Lazy writing I disagree with, its more just bad writing on some fronts. They tried to do something and failed. "Why do you post here? So you can complain about complaints? Get over it! IT'S JUST A MESSAGE BOARD! Get over it and get a girlfriend." Theres a difference between critique in a respectful manner and nitpicking in a disputatious manner. Compare the difference between Tywin diligently explaining his beliefs and Dany on her childish Targ rant whining and stomping all the way. There are ways of getting a point across without being so combative. But I dont hate for that. Fact is that its the love of the story that causes us to be combative. Sometimes its hard to see that from the outside. We are so tied to the story that we just get defensive. Bottom line is we need the aggressive angry rants as much as the calm & respectful synopsis of each episode. I, myself, channel all that rage towards GRRM saying our next book will be at least 2-3 yrs away, wtf man. Erm, what? You didn't notice the zombie mob, the arm flying off and the guts spilling out? I didn't notice it on a re-watch or anything, I only saw the episode once and I'm not the most acutely observant of watchers. It was right there. The arm flying was.. interesting... it did seem more like they chewed thru the guy instead of tearing him apart. That really didnt bother me it just made it more evident how vicious the murder was, but I guess they felt the need to exaggerate the severity. Rockroi already explained why the scene was stupid. Basically, if Jon meant to spare her (and we know he did, he didn't "miss" that sword swing), why was he chasing her? He wasn't going to kill her. He wasn't going to follow her all the way to the wildling camp. He wasn't going to take her back as prisoner to Qhorin, since Qhorin would have killed her. Even if you want to make Jon an indecisive moron (which is a crappy thing to do to the character), the scene still doesn't make sense. Is it really that crappy? Given his eventual end-result as head of the NW I think it really enhances how controversial his being the head of the NW was. He did some stupid ish, people didnt exactly consider him the epitome of a leader. And he missed her thinking okay heres my moment for a love connection to discuss what to do from here and she split. I think the books version of the events worked better personally, but for what they chose to do it isnt that surprising. He spared her and she ran away so he wanted to chase her so that his act of 'indiscretion and mercy' didnt come back to haunt him. Why would I trust them when I've found their writing to be lamentable as far as these things are concerned? I'm only pessimistic because they keep making stupid decisions. I just think the problem is saying hey take a 100 hour story and tell it in 9 hours. Things need to be changed to make it work on-screen. People always use LOTR as a reference to this book and show. LOTR was ridiculously successful as a movie trilogy and there were so many changes to the story to fit the timeline and carry a certain time progression standard and atmosphere to the depiction. If LOTR stayed true to the storyline of the books I sincerely doubt the success wouldve been as great. The writing isnt lamentable.. the decisions arent stupid... we have unlimited time on here to critique and say how things should be but with a time restraint the writers do not have this luxury while trying to build a world for us to attach ourselves to... coming attractions for the wonderful (sarcsasm) episode of Veep that is an hour away take away from much needed time that could be used to tell the story... It would be nice as well to have the show start on time those extra minutes would surely benefit the writers.. Sure, I'm a purist. I want to watch an adaptation of the novels I loved, not a bastardized, badly written fanfiction. I don't hate every single change, just the ones they do poorly. It just happens that this episode had a fuckton of those. Ironic the mention of bastardizing with reference to Jon Snow. I will have to concede the point that Jon Snows storyline seems to be taking the biggest hit due to time constraints. I wouldnt say this is a degraded version of the books equivalent to a badly written fanfiction though, that seems somewhat extreme. We are just dealing with a world that is far too vast to be conveyed in any reasonable manner within 10 (so not 1 full hour) episodes. HBO is shooting themselves in their respective feet with this as far as i am concerned. This show has the potential to carry the channel and most of television for years to come. Ive seen so many shows have 20+ 1 hour episodes in a season that shouldnt have even been able to make more than 5 episodes. Budgetary concerns need to be addressed and it needs to be that we can have more time to tell this story. Given the amount of time we are allowed there is no realistic way of telling this story without rushing certain aspects, tweaking certain elements to accommodate the limited timeframe. Blame HBO not the writers. Try going out to Vegas for a weekend for crazy parties and to experience everything you never experienced before. Then try to tell the 72 hour story (Fri thru Sun) in 50 minutes while hitting every key moment of the experience. Kinda hard to do that isnt it? In essence, a season is equal to a visual synopsis of each book. It hits the key points but unfortunately, for the sake of time, many aspects go unnoticed or unmentioned.

This is a tv series that only gets to follow specific POV's.... one of the biggest issues is that the book goes on about 50,000 different plot tangents which is why now by book 5 we are basically seeing no progress. It is pretty hard to make significant progress with so many plot arcs... The whole point of the TV show being different is they are giving more time and more storyline to main arcs because it is blatantly less time/material to work with. People say its 10 different 1 hour episodes but this isnt even true at all. The show starts at 9pm they say but the show actually doesnt even begin til like 9:04 then the opening sequence is a few minutes in itself, then the show winds up ending at like 9:51. Each episode is actually more like 50 minutes. We want this show to last so it has to appeal to all demographics and have different entertainment values like comedy, violence, sex appeal and drama to survive the prime time world. People condemn the 2nd most wealthy guy in Quaith for being so over the top and strange but thats what they were like in similar times (think of the guy in Gladiator that announced the games for the Gladiator arena all fancy in his wig and makeup). People condemn Robb for how he acted with Tylisa/Jeyne saying for him to be a kid since its his first love... Robb is the 'king' so he acted like a kid trying to be a king flirting with a girl with false arrogance. And they did age him up so it isnt like he is the same child in the books... As for this season seeming rushed.. in a lot of ways I agree it is but I blame HBO for not giving the season enough time to handle depicting so many different arcs. We dont get 10 hours we get more like 9 when all is said and done with credits, stupid show previews and late starts so there is no way for us to get the elaborate show we all want... Which is why its perfectly fine that apparently Littlefinger has access to secret railroads to travel around because if we based his travel on a somewhat realistic timeline itd wind up taking him 7 episodes to go from one place to the next. And my one main negative I must say... is that some people are so happy they saw the direwolves... Idk about you but I agree with the few who have mentioned the lack of wolf action this season. I feel like the most we have gotten so far is the equivalent of the wolves hopping on screen, waving to us then scampering off to who knows where. The amount we see them isnt even enough to be considered cameos. Ghost hasnt looked like the vicious and intuitive wolf I see in the books hes some wandering wolf that pops in to say hi then disappears to have no involvement in the storyline whatsoever. If this show had more legitimate time to display the storylines I think it would be phenomenally better to everybody, there is no reason to just get 10 short episodes. There is WAY too much story to be told and the lack of time to show it is the sole reason for all of the complaints we see about timewarping Littlefinger and all rushed storytelling. That and the fact that some people just love nitpicking about SOMETHING because lets be honest one of the best things about a show is the ability to criticize because a show thrives on positive AND negative critique.... what we should worry about is if nobody says ANYTHING. Love and hate implies the show is on our minds.... ignorance and silence implies this show is doomed... So it is safe to say we are all safe for the next season... Hopefully HBO decides to start the show on time.. stop showing so many previews during our dedicated GOT timeslot... and give us some more damn episodes to tell the overwhelmingly elaborate story with some justice!! And on a side note I did actually laugh when Lorch got sniped like that, as random as the method was. Theres nothing wrong with a little laughter people..