Imp Beyond the Wall

NikkiG, spot on.

Oh shit! It begins with a bang!!!

Personally I think that Cersei is in the early stages of a psychotic break. We will see if reality and remorse creep back in. It very well may be that her moment of clarity comes just before her brother (whichever) has to put her down. Or it may never come. I said that guilt is going to hit her. I should have said it may hit her. Cersei may have decided that Tommen was a lost cause when he sided with Marjery and His High Sh!ttiness against her. The "no trial by combat" proclamation was a gut punch. You could see it. She tried to keep him out of the sept but maybe she didn't really give a fcuk anymore. "Dummy wanna jump out a window...WGAS ! Jump." Truthfully, I felt that way about Tommen, but I gave his mother more credit. They have really buillt it up about how Cersei loves her children... I would prefer for Cersei to be overwhelmed by Shame! Shame! Shame! before she dies, but she is quite a piece of work. She may not be capable. On the other hand, I do not believe that the Valonquar will ultimately act out of anger or hatred or revenge. I believe it will be a devastatingly hard choice for the greater good. Love and pity and justice and maybe self-preservation. But not malice. IMHO.

You make good points. Right now, all she has is spite. When she realizes that Dany is coming and the Tyrion is her hand, she will undoubtedly realize that her crusade/vendetta against Margery was stupid and useless. She needed to get rid of the HS, but killing some much of the KL elite including Margery and her uncle Kevin, may push her a little closer to total madness. She acts like she has zero conscience but I am not so sure. Guilt/responsibility for Tommen is going to hit her eventually. Anyway, Dany will give her a "purpose" again, but I think that by the time the end comes Cersei will be Mad King Arys come again.

True. Especially in the case of Ellaria and the Sand Snakes. Oberyn was not killed by the Lannisters. He is dead because he decided to go into Batman villain mode and beat around the bush when he should have killed the Mountain and been done with it. Killing Myrcella was unjustified cold blooded murder. Joff was cold-blooded murder too, but he was such a sh!t that nobody weeps for him. Team Dany is not as "unsullied" as it used to be. In the books the Dornish plot and motivations are different and make more sense.

Really I just thought it was interesting that Olenna started the killing, Not the Mad Queen. I am not comparing the two. I really like QoT (show and books) and hate Cersei. The only time I have only ever been on Cersei's side was against the High Sh!tbird. It is well known that Cersei's has a talent for acquiring power but no ability to wield it. The Queen of thorns is masterful but that doesn't change the fact that her preemptive strike against Joff came to nothing(show, we don't know what will happen in the books). I think that show Cersei is completely mad now. I don't think her reactions are in any way indicative of her feelings for her children. I think she is completely unhinged. In a way, I almost think they are letting her come completely unglued so that when the Valonquar (JL or TL) does her in, it will be an act of mercy. I know Tyrion hates her but he is not a monster. In the end I think either brother will kill her with a heavy heart. .

Perhaps Kinvara is in Dany's Armada. What is interesting is if Melissandre encounters Kinvara in the South and tells her what's going on in the North, how does she react? How do they resolve which one has the true "Promised One." Does Thoros factor into it? If Arya encounters Thoros and the Hound, do they follow her to Winterfell? Does Arya become a stand in for LSH? Many possibilities, all of them kind of awesome.

Good points. I only meant to suggest that mayhap Dany has already been to Dorne, not to suggest whee she might land. And you are right, one or all of the Sand Snakes would probably have been visible on deck if she were departing from Dorne. I absolutely like your idea of setting loose the Dothraki to draw the defenders out of their strongholds and then crushing them from sea, air and land. Dany's forces are a giant Seal Team. The show has not mentioned Euron's dragon horn at all. I hope that mean that it doesn't factor that much in the books. I really hope it turns out to be a bust. I would hate to see any of Dany's three dragons destroyed or even turned against her. I have also considered that maybe Euron's horn is actually the Horn of Joramun and he just doesn't know it. Since I think the dragons are key to ultimate victory, I would almost rather see the horn crack the wall, than turn the dragons.

Furthermore Mace proved over and over that he was Tommen's equal in wussery. Mace was weak through and through. The toughest thing about him was his name. It is uncertain what the Tyrell army would have done after the destruction of the great sept. If they were inside the walls or just outside the walls, who would give the orders? The private armies were employees. I don't see them attacking the Lannisters without orders. Olenna had declared she was going to Highgarden. I assume she went. In her position I think that it is equally plausible that she would strike back or that she would wait and play a more strategic game. Either way, nothing is certain.

One other random thought. I understand why Olenna wants revenge against Cersei, but...she struck Cersei first by killing Joff. Really, one could say that she set events in motion that cost her her entire house. I always thought that Cersei vs Margery was mostly Cersei's paranoia. I don't think Margery needed to destroy Cersei to get what she wanted. Maggie's Queen was always going to be Dany.

I hate to say it again but I think the GRRM will tell the story of Maid Margery much better. No slight to what I think was a fantastic season. The show just doesn't have the time and space to let the Rose of Highgarden bloom in full.

#1. My thought exactly. I hadn't considered #2 and #3. Not sure that I think they will happen, but I wouldn't be mad. Interesting ideas. Cold Hands proved himself an ally, but GRRM says Uncle BJ isn't cold hands. Cold hands saving Sam and helping Bran seemed to be at the direct behest of the 3ER. Bloodraven is dead now. BJ could possibly be something else. We do see BJ kill WW's but that could be subterfuge. They are all dead after all. What difference does it make to them.

Personally I think it was an attempt by the show-runners to leave some shred of the R+L=J theory unspoiled in the books. If you want to know what Lyanna says to Ned, read the book. Such huge chunks are spoiled already. Jon's resurrection, Dany's victory in Meereen, Mad Queen Cersei. I think they wanted to leave GRRM a little something.

Two random thoughts. Both may have already been brought up by others. 1) Cersei and Jaime really reminded me of Michael and Kay at the end of the Godfather. After Michael settled the family business and Kay was like who the fcuk am I married to? It is kind of apt, because Michael become Vito, and Cersei actually surpasses Tywin by becoming Queen in her own right, only with extra crazy sauce. 2) I did not notice any Sun Spear sails in Dany's armada but, I did not see any other definitive evidence that says they were sailing TO Dorne rather than FROM Dorne. What if they picked up Varys and Dornish allies on the way to King's Landing rather than Varys rejoining Tyrion in Meereen. It cuts down on the need for a Westerosi wormhole for speedy travel Actually I have no problem with how D&D liberally use time passing off screen to save travel time. I think that all the hand wringing about it is kind of funny.

That's really a question for LF isn't it?

Spooky. All that's missing is, "No kitty! That's my Frey-pie!"

She did not say "Screw you guys..." But she did say , "I'm going home..." I have heard worse theories.

My quote was accurate. I just re-watched it. Anyway, I meant to say that he is Lyanna's son. No doubt.

Nah. Ned tells Jon, "You are a Stark. You may not have my name, but you have my blood." I believe Ned. He does not say, "I raised you..." He says , "You have my blood." That settles it for me.

I felt that by making it suicide, Cersei is forced to face the fact that Tommen's death was a direct result of her actions and her actions alone. NO Imp to blame, no Dorne to blame. That would make her crazy. I find it interesting that she burned the Great Sept before Tommen's death. That could mean that she was already "crazy", but personally I think it means that she planned and executed a mass murder even BEFORE she went crazy. That is a pretty scary thought.

Now that Margery is off the show, I hope see makes a new "Emma Peel" movie. I think she has a lot in common with the young Olenna.

I have no love for Sansa book or show, but any insinuation that she is "working against" any of her brothers, half or otherwise, is just crap. IMO. I hope that at the end of the day D&D will stop making Jon so dumb. I don't mind them elevating Sansa as a "player" but part of the Jon Snow character is that he is wise beyond his years. I understand that they needed him to be a little lost after being resurrected but I want him back in commander mode now. Doubty time is over. I also hope that (on the show and in the books) Robb did in fact legitimize Jon and that Jon will be Lord of Winterfell. Even if he eventually goes on to be something else and turns it over to Sansa, I do want to see his dream of sitting in Ned's place fulfilled. Someone commented above the Ned is not Jon's father. Maybe not biologically, but in every meaningful way Jon is Ned's son and a Stark through and through. I also fear that the Onion Knight is about to give the Red Woman a red smile. Sir Davos loved Shireen, even if Jon tries to intervene to save Melissandre, I think she may be doomed. I like the Red Witch. I feel like she is ultimately is "good' and has Jon's back. But the burning of Shireen cannot go unpunished. I think that in the books it will be Queen Selyse who burns Shireen in desperation, not Stannis or Mellisandre. She is the mindless zealot, IMO.

IMO Arya's wounds were not fatal, because the Waif did not want them to be fatal. The Waif was toying with her. She wanted to draw out the kill and terrorize Arya before she killed her. She was "playing with her food" and got GOT! AND she did not die because she's Bat-Arya <said in Christian Bale's Batman voice>! One additional point, and I am not exactly comparing show and the books, I do not wish to wade into that argument. But the point I do wish to make does touch on book versus show a little. I am a little bummed that so many things (Jon, Dany, Sandor, Arya) have (probably) been spoiled now that the show has gotten a little ahead of the books. The pity of that is that I think that George would have revealed things slower and with more detail and logical foundation than is possible for TV. I am not complaining about how the show does it, D&D have way more hits IMO than misses. I think it sucks that GRRM did not get to tell it first. He brought it on himself, but... I just wonder if the (potential) foreknowledge from the show will negatively impact the experience of the book. Foreknowledge from the books has never bothered me watching the show, but now the foot is in the other shoe. My personal philosophy of adaptions has always been: the source material is the truth, adaptations are what happens when people try to tell the story later and lies, exaggerations and honest mistakes get mixed in. In my mind that makes it is easy to reconcile the differences. That's life, nobody tells a perfect story... Now though, that model is turned on it's head...sort of. D&D put their version in my head first. I logically know that GRRM is still the "truth", but for the first time he is not getting there first! It is a little weird.

Tommen. She is legally still Lady Lannister. Little lady Mormont called her ought on her bigamy.

I think it matters that adult Hodor was physically present with Bran in the present, while Bran was psychically in the past with young Hodor. I think that there was a connection to Bran warging present day Hodor to flee while not entirely out of vision mode causing the accidental spillover into young Hodor. I only bring it up to say that I don't think Bran can necessarily ALWAYS affect the past when viewing past events.