Lothar

What Takyon said. It would be pretty irredeemable if they treated rape as a bump in the road and not something traumatizing. Unrealistic too.

I thought it was a great episode. I absolutely hated the rape last week but of all possible directions to take from it, that was the best one. She didn't brush it off as a chance to get revenge. She doesn't look stronger. She's a helpless trapped victim. The show is treating it with gravity. Sansa has become Jeyne Poole. Too bad about Theon. The show can't do redemption arcs very well. No one will sympathize with him now.

Not that it means anything but I deleted my vote of 4 and gave it a 7. Hard to go much higher than that with the Sand Snakes scene. But I'm feeling better about the episode than I did a week ago after reading everyone's explanations.

I made this post earlier in the week very angry about the scene and I rated the episode a 3. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/129075-book-spoilers-ep506-discussion-v-2/?p=7000934 I said in another forum that it was officially a bad show. A week later after reading everyone's arguments with an open mind, I'm actually starting to warm up a little to it. People have made good arguments on both sides. I thought Elio and Linda made a very good case for it here in their review. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcnwhMrVJjg#t=57m I like this explanation better than the one in their small 10 minute video because it's more in depth. I was confused when I watched it. They made a big deal in the show about that she wasn't scared and her goal was to manipulate Ramsay and she didn't even try anything. I asked "Why did you agree to marry him then?" I thought after I watched it that it was saying that Sansa was willing to be put up with being raped to get her revenge, which would have been abominable. Now I understand she was willing to go through with it at first but she had no idea what she was getting into. She thought she could manipulate him but now after seeing what a monster he was, she's just terrified. That makes sense. Any plan she thought she had is out the window. She's a total victim. She was convinced to put herself into a situation worse than being with Joffrey by Littlefinger. I'm mixed on it now and I'm willing to wait and see. If it makes her a better or worse character, it depends on what they do. One thing for sure is she has to either flee or try to flee Winterfell. She can't put up with it. She can come back after Stannis cleans the place of Boltons. One good thing about Sansa being in Winterfell with Theon. She'll be able to find out Bran and Rickon are still alive. Maybe the story is she draws strength from that, rather than being rape empowered. What purpose does the rape serve then? I don't know, maybe it's what causes her to finally stop trusting Littlefinger and turn against him. What about I'm about to say doesn't make the scene better at all. If it's bad, it's bad. This is not in support of it. This is just a side note. I do like the discussion it generated. I liked seeing how many people deeply cared about Sansa. This was a Red Wedding type reaction. Even after it aired, I didn't see that coming. If-when she does eventually do something great, people are going to be really ecstatic about it. Hopefully, Season 6 would have her no longer trusting Littlefinger and in charge of Winterfell by herself making Frey pies.

It's very clear the Sansa scene was just done for shock value. You want Sansa to have a bigger presence this season and put her in the North storyline, you want Ramsay to be an even biggest monster, you want Sansa to appear in over her head, you want Theon to redeem himself. There's many ways to do this without turning her into a total helpless victim again and without her seeming stupid as well. I thought she would be okay with the sex going into it, but then Ramsay would do something horrible to Myranda and might even try to get Sansa to join in. What the hell is the point of Myranda? I thought that was why she existed. When Littlefinger told Sansa to make Ramsay your own, and she thought that was a good idea, common sense says she would probably have to have sex with a despicable person. I thought by agreeing to the marriage it meant she was going to pretend to enjoy him. Like how Margarey treated Joffrey. Or how Osha treated Theon. Who would ever thought she'd be too scared to even demand that Theon leave the room? Or that she would be saying what a kind man Tyrion was for not touching her. I thought the surprise would be when he flayed someone. Then she would realize that she's in for more than she bargained for. If not that, then I thought she might try to stab Ramsay as soon as they were alone together. Even if it didn't work, at least she would be trying something and not just be standing there and taking it. What can her goal possibly be? If it's waiting for Stannis to show up, well that's too idiotic for words. Littlefinger already said Stannis is expected to win. If he wins, the Boltons are dead anyway. Can anyone explain this? I have no faith in D & D to make something good out of this because I remember how they treated the Cersei rape last year. Just ignored it.

I gave it a 7. The three Tyrion scenes were all excellent, but those were the only scenes I'd really ever care to see again. As I said before I'm upset that they rushed through the Sansa scene, only give it a few minutes, and skipped over my favorite Sansa part in the series - the actual building of the Winterfell castle - so important and emotional to show how she misses Winterfell and such a contrast to how she wanted to leave it in the beginning of the series. I really wish the Vale stuff had been given as much time and care as the trial last week. Other than that, the rest of the show felt like a lot of filler honestly. The Dany scenes were boring. Why not show the inside of Meereen, show some of people getting killed in the streets? Or.. why not show Jorah making a move on Dany and kissing her like in the book. I suppose they could still do it her remaining two episodes but they also have to have Jorah's betrayal, a dragon eating a kid, and the chaining of the dragons. There's so much they can do. I don't know why has her story has been so dull. Jon's scene was bland and could have been left out. Still there's not much tension or panic. Jesus, 100,000 people are about to attack. The way they're talking, you would think 30-50 were about to attack. I've seen on other forums lots of people who haven't read the books don't even realize the battle is about to happen. Why would they really. Mance has been coming for 2 seasons. I just don't care about the Milsandre/Selyse scene and Pod/Brienne. I feel like the show needs more focus. Last episode was great with a large portion focused on Tyrion. This time put a lot of focus on another big story. This just feels so tangential and makes the show come off as if nothing happened until the final 10 minutes. It's been a problem in a few episodes this season. The less said about the re-introduction of the Mountain the better. Arya and the Hound was okay. Dialogue could have been better. The way they used Rorge and Biter was pretty damn weak. If there was a big fight instead, it could have actually maybe turned into something compelling. Like the House and Arya's scene in the first episode. That was fantastic.

Yeah, the scene would have been the same if they added 10 seconds of frustration. Because that would mean they only devoted 15 seconds to the scene before the dialogue came in, so it would still be extremely rushed. Now if they actually spent some time showing her building the castle, then it wouldn't be the same. How on earth can you say you're not sure what I could possibly want when I just told you? I wanted more than 10 seconds of her in the snow without dialogue. I wanted the audience to spend time with her as she's building the castle thinking about the emotions that she must be experiencing as she's building it. Give them some time to feel (not just understand, but feel) how badly she is missing Winterfell. The show didn't even give people a chance to process it before Robin came in and started talking. Non-book readers don't know that she spent all morning building it or how much it meant for it to be as perfect to her memories as possible. The building of the castle was a powerful heartfelt scene in the books. No dialogue at all is needed. People could figure out what was going through her head.

It was clearly very rushed. It was a heartfelt emotional moment in the books that let you feel for her as she was building Winterfell. That she was going over every detail, spending all morning making it, thinking of all the memories. Then getting frustrated because she couldn't get just right, which is when Petyr showed up to help her. In the show, she walks out into the snow, and then we cut to where the castle's already made. What kind of unemotional robot would decide to make that cut? Can we go 10 seconds in this show without dialogue? They stripped the heart from that scene. Now I do appreciate that it was in there at all even for a handful of rushed seconds but it wasn't even a fraction of what I wanted.

In the show, he actually got her to smile before the wedding. It went much further the night of the wedding before he told her he couldn't do it. He actually told her he wanted her. He told her to get into bed. He told her not to cover herself with the blanket. Only then when she was laying there with her eyes closed did he say "Stop, open your eyes, I can't do this." It's just not half as interesting as the way the book did it. Unlike the last two episodes which perfectly captured the Jaime/Brienne dynamic and did everything great.

I give it an 8. I didn't like that the Hound, Tyrion, and Sansa are all so much nicer than their book versions. Sansa not kneeling is understandable given what a great perfect guy Tyrion is. I miss the animosity in their wedding, how they both seemed to briefly hate each other. It's one of those things that made it interesting and made you wonder "Will he consummate his marriage?" In the show, I feel there was no chance. I didn't like that there was no Robb and Catelyn. I didn't like that Arya and the Hound was so short - I think Arya continues to get the shaft by the show. Milsandre and Gendry went on way too long when we could have had more Arya/Hound or Robb/Catelyn. I am always stunned by the reactions of the internet as I thought this episode was not nearly as good as the last two episodes (which I had zero complaints with) but it was better than episode 5, which I think I rated a 7.

Of course you do. I can't tell you how many friends and coworkers asked me questions about episodes 4 and 5. They were so confused. One of the main reasons I would say this episode was sooo much better written than the episodes before it actually helped the viewer out and because they slowed everything down/allowed viewers time to think. Episode 5 seemed like it was written just for people that read the books. As was the first appearance of Beric in Episode 4. The scene was so short and rushed. They should have explained more about why Ned sent them to kill the mountain and how he was in a position to do that because I doubt most non-book readers instantly remembered that scene from Season 1 from that one sentence of Beric's. (Perhaps if there was a little break from the serious dialogue and people were allowed to think) If a show gives viewers an endless amount of characters to keep track of, sometimes exaggerated characters and handholding are needed. I appreciate the "Hey remember this" parts as it saves me from having to answer questions the next day at work.

My first 10 of the season. Because finally it's slower, they've allowed scenes and stories to breathe, and it doesn't feel they're rushing through the plot. Which is how the last episode felt to me. I feel like this was the most understandable episode of the season for causal fans. I think it was so much better written than the last episode. I feel like it's the first time they've done Jon's story justice this season. Mostly because they actually spent time on him. With Theon, they've finally told the audience that no, they're not supposed to know who's torturing Theon or what's going on and the torture is becoming just as brutal as it was in the books. Olenna/Tywin and Varys/Littlefinger were two scenes with awesome awesome dialogue that I loved all the more because I wasn't expecting it. The entire climb and the beautiful shot at the end were some of the most atmospheric scenes in the series. Oh and Ros is dead! How could anyone give it less than a 9?

Then that has to mean something in it was pushed back, doesn't it? Because that was probably Cosmo's least eventful scene in the series thus far. I give the episode of 8. Coming from someone that didn't like episodes 7, 8, and 10 of Season 2. Tywin/Tyrion's scene was flawless. Dany and Jon's stories are already more interesting than they were for the entirety of Season 2. I enjoyed seeing Margaery's new scenes. Davos and Stannis was solid, about what I expected. There was no exposition/sexposition. Everything looked wonderful. The only big problem I had was no battle in the beginning. That was cheap and lazy considering how Season 2 ended.