Isobel Harper

I don't recall if I mentioned this on this thread... Harren the Red = red herring The curse of Harrenhal doesn't stem from any Harren but from Quentyn Qoherys, who was castrated and left to bleed to death in the Harrenhal godswood.

Lysa is connected to Lys via similar spelling and Tears of Lys, which she used to kill her husband. Lysa dies and is replaced with MYRanda. Anything intriguing about Myr that Myranda might be connected to? Only thing I can think of is the Myrish torture device that Aerys used on Brandon Stark. Also, could this make Tysha connected to Tyrosh in some way?

I didn't mean to equate Joffrey as the rose necessarily, although yes, that's a good point. A king/queen could be seen as the bud of the rose. (Let theorists who believe Jon Snow - the blue rose ala HotU prophecy - ends up as King by the end of the series have a field day with that.) As for horn parallels, I often wonder if Mormont's raven isn't saying "horn" instead of "corn" at times. Birds are limited in what sounds they can pronounce, and human ears will fill in the gaps to what they hear/want to hear when something is unclear. (ie aural illusion) Corn is a seed. Seed (ala the Nights King) is an allusion to soul. There's another thread tending at the moment with regard to the Horn That Wakes the Sleepers being a direwolf. Direwolves are (per Jon who views Ghost as another part of him) an extension of the soul. So corn=soul and corn=horn=direwolf=soul.

Not many people would know that Mund (which now means "mouth") originally meant "protection." I'm a huge name-nerd, and happen to know some etymological aspects of names. I'm a bit rusty too. I almost forgot Tür had an Umlaut; little things like this are slowly escaping me. As for GRRM being conscious of the etymology of names... IF theories about the Myrcella-Rosamund swap are correct, then YES! Rosamund means "horse protection." And Rosamund (not Myrcella) was saved by her horse when it bucked during Darkstar's attack.

"Mund" is also an Old German word meaning something like "protection." The name Rosamund means "horse protection." The Old High German name for horse was hros. (Side note, hros evolved into Ross which means steed. Germans now use Pferd for horse.) Perhaps GRRM isn't aware of this though? Tür means door, though Tor means gate. (If I had to guess, both of these words evolved from the same Old German word due to their similar meaning and similar spelling.) So, I would guess Tormund means either gate mouth or gate protection. "Gate mouth" is reminiscent of the Weirwood tree Bran goes through, no?

Dorn/Thorn/Dorne... Thorne/Throne When we were discussing German language equivalents earlier (ie stark means strong), I don't know how I missed this one! Dorn is thorn in German. We have one "thorn" in the story: Alester Thorne. Both Dorne and Thorne are words with a silent E added to them. Dorne is the feminist kingdom. With the idea in mind that woman are roses, Feminist (and yeah I'm stereotyping) don't want to be seen as flowers/seen as soft, but seen as strong, capable women... the thorns? Thorns represent getting hurt by a lover, and (which I read somewhere) the two great love losses that GRRM experienced in the 70s (one girl left him for his best friend, another stayed friends, which relationship always bothered him deep down) were feminist. Thorn/Thorne/Throne The Iron Throne is much like a rose. When one thinks of the Iron Throne and of a rose, one thinks of the top: the seat and the actual flower. In reality, there are thorns/swords underneath that can prick someone.

Nor would I. I meant "sweetening" the truth as in bending the truth. Think UnKiss, defense of Joffrey, and other "denials."

I didn't have a chance to elaborate much on this earlier, as I was literally about to go to work. Note how Durrandon's line continued, through the female line and under a different name, but still their in blood. This is what has happened to House Lothston and House Whent; Lothston's line was continued through House Whent, the latter which continues through House Stark. House Qoherys might have continued through all of these houses. Again, sorry for going off topic. I elaborated more on this subject here: Another Lemon/Melon connection: Richard Lonmouth. Many have concluded that Lem Lemoncloak is really Richard Lonmouth. Consider the L-O-N of Lonmouth. It's a "mush" of lemon; it's also the ending of melon: lemon, melon. Lem Lemoncloak is noted for having yellow teeth. Being truly Lonmouth, he is "lemon mouth." As for the lemon/teeth connection... In real life, acidic fruits wear away at the enamel of our teeth. (A friend of mine, who has lupus, swears that drinking lemon water keeps her healthy and prevents flare ups. Perhaps lemons can improve physical heath; they certainly do contain a lot of folic acid and vitamin C.) Perhaps the author is ignoring that fact? Fruits as a whole can symbolize something perhaps, but so do individual fruits. I believe lemons symbolize truth in some way. As mentioned before, "Lonmouth" is a hint to the truth of who Lem with the yellow teeth is. Sansa tends to "sugar" the truth; lemoncakes are sweetened lemons. (When life gives you lemons, make lemonade lemoncakes.) Jeor Mormont drinks lemon in his water every morning. There's a saying (though it involves eating not drinking): [A person] eats X for breakfast. Whatever term X is makes the subject of the sentence seem like a bad-ass. "He eats rusty nails for breakfast," or as immortalized in Happy Gilmore, "I eat pieces of shit like you for breakfast." Jeor Mormont eats, or rather drinks, bitter truths for breakfast. @Seams RE: Hair/heir There's also Harry the Heir! (Sorry if you mentioned this previously; I don't recall.) Harry's hair (he is said to have Jon Arryn's look) might lead people to doubt Sweetrobin's paternity. There's an interesting "almost alliteration" with Harry the Heir, and I wonder if that's intentional. And if so, for what reason? To look silly? I recently began reading The Sworn Sword again, and it's occurred to me that the title too has an "almost alliteration." Both Harry the Heir and the Sworn Sword would be alliteration if not for a silent letter in both of them. Dam/Damn There's a drought occurring in Westeros during the Sworn Sword. Many characters say that it is a curse put on the land by the gods due to BR's acts of kinslaying. They're damned by the gods. Due to the drought, the rivers are all running low. Lady Webber dams up her stream so to feed her own crops, but the dam cuts off the water supply to areas below it, i.e. where Dunk serves. Eventually, Trial by Combat ensues. Lucas Longinch dies, bleeding into the river, serving as a blood sacrifice. Dunk sees long white fish, probably the same type of fish Bran sees in BR's cave. In short, by Dunk slaying Lucas Longinch, he's "undam(n)ed" others. Other misc "name jumbles": Septa Lemore/Septa Mordane. This involves some speculation on my part. I think Lemore is Lemore Dayne, a lady of House Dayne that we haven't formally been introduced to yet. Lemore Dayne/Mordane. Ny Sar. "This is Ny Sar, where the Mother gathers in her Wild Daughter, Noyne," said Yandry. This might be purely coincidental. I dunno. Catelyn/Stoneheart is currently looking for her daughters, seeking to reunite with them, to "gather them in." Ny Sar is another "name jumble" of Sansa and Arya. Reverse Ny Sar, then use the bolded letters. Collect them from Sar, then Ny, then back to Sar. Sar Ny: Sansa Sar Ny: Arya

I do think the bird and bat imagery is connected, but I feel that the imagery concerning bird and bat is evolving to the latter. The Hound often calls Sansa Little Bird, but is missing in ASoS. There's the connection to birds during the meal with the Queen of Thorns, as you've pointed out. This scene occurs in ASoS, Sansa I. Sansa begins to have imagery of a bat associated with her in ASoS, Sansa IV, mean her stomach first flutters like a bat. Later in the book, Arya hears the tale of Sansa flying out of KL, transforming her herself into a wolf with bat wings. Perhaps the Butterbump egg hatching scene can also be interpreted as a depiction not as hatching of dragons, but "hatching" of bats? I disagree. I don't think the Storm's End connection is literal. Durran is to Storm's End as LF is to Harrenhal. The "bat" discussion is rather off topic. I have my own thread (Bat and Wolf in my signature) if you'd like to read through it. I think LM's thread still has a valid point. Scene's with eggs consumed are relevant to people who will try or will get the opportunity to bond with a dragon. (Although Cersei's half-formed chick in her egg might mean that one of her children dies by one.) I posted these thoughts on LM's thread towards the end, I think on the last page, after LM's Arya find.

Dragon riders do implement saddles. During their battle under the God's Eye, Daemon and Aemond are mentioned using a saddle. Aemond straps himself in, although Daemon neglects to; this was intentional. Daemon later jumps from his saddle to Aemond's and kills him in the air. However, given the unpredictability of dragons, their size, etc., a special means to control them (such as a telepathic and/or empathic connection) would certainly aid in riding. Even if a rider could rely on their dragon not attacking him/her, controlling where they fly seems like it'd be a challenge otherwise. The saddle more or less just keeps the rider from falling off. RE: Sansa's potential "dragon" and/or "warging" blood. According to Lost Melnibonean's Peeling Another Egg thread, there is some sort of connection between dragon riding and eggs peeled and consumed during meals. For example, Tyrion's egg in one scene "wanted salt," perhaps a hint that Tyrion doesn't have the right genes to ride a dragon. Here is one scene where Sansa consumes eggs: Tyrion scarce touched his food, Sansa noticed, though he drank several cups of the wine. For herself, she tried a little of the Dornish eggs, but the peppers burned her mouth. Otherwise she only nibbled at the fruit and fish and honeycakes. Every time Joffrey looked at her, her tummy got so fluttery that she felt as though she'd swallowed a bat. In this scene, the eggs don't even need to be peeled; they've already been prepared and ready to eat. They're not to her taste, however. Perhaps this is a hint that Sansa could easily ride a dragon, but it's not "to her taste." Perhaps she'd be too afraid?. Also, House Tully might have Valryian blood, though distant. When granted Harrenhal by Aegon I, Quenton Qoherys married Lord Tully's daughter. His grandson Gargon (1/4 Tully) inherited after him, though ultimately died and lost the seat. We don't know who Quenton's child/children were or who Gargon's parents were, but it's plausible that one/some of Quenton's children married back into House Tully, as first-cousin marriages are not uncommon in Westeros.

Adding to the name anagram topic. Could there be a possible connection between Alayne and Elenei? Alayne (and the similar names Alayna and Alaina) can be a feminine form of Alan or a form of Helen. http://www.behindthename.com/name/alayna Alan means "little rock," and Sansa is currently hiding as a "Stone." The Greek form of Helen is Elene, which is very similar to Elenei. The "e" at the end of Elene and the "ei" at the end of Elenei are both pronounced as a long "e." (I personally pronounce the "ei" and "ay," but GRRM pronounces it like "ee.") Is Sansa/Alayne supposed to be some sort of Elenei parallel? According to some theories, the Baratheon tapestry that LF requested from Cersei depicts something regarding Durran Godsgrief and Elenei, and LF is pulling off some sort of Durran/Bael/Rhaegar 2.0 "theft."

In the Qartheen legend, the sun represents a man, the second moon his wife, and the dragons spilling forth his child(ren). The legend of the forging of Lightbringer is similar. So a man opening a pie with a sword symbolizes the bedding that will occur after the feast, the many birds symbolize the many children the couple could have. Perhaps the opening of the pie ceremony is a gesture of blessing the marriage with children? There's a connection drawn between marriage and the bird pie in The Mystery Knight. Although children are not mentioned, it's concluded that the birds represent what a wife might bring to the marriage. "This is the proper way to fill a pie," Ser Kyle sniffed, cleaning off his tunic. "The pie is meant to be the marriage, and a true marriage has in it many sorts of things—joy and grief, pain and pleasure, love and lust and loyalty. So it is fitting that there be birds of many sorts. No man ever truly knows what a new wife will bring him."

I've noticed some sort of dragon egg hatching parallel here too. It's possible that the author is hinting at Sansa having the right genes to hatch dragons. Per some theories, dragon-bonding and warging genes are one and the same. Others propose (Preston Jacobs' Genetics of Dragons and War series comes to mind) that warging genes can at least substitute dragon genes. Sansa is also associated with birds ("little bird," "little dove," wearing dove grey), and we see her "hatching" baby birds. However, she has a growing association with bats. The association with bats begins some time within ASoS, and the scene you mention occurs in the very first chapter of ASoS. (Sweetsunray proposes that The Bear and the Maiden Fair, which is sung in this chapter, causes sexual maturation (i.e. a transformation) in young maidens. Perhaps the song, sexual maturity, evolution from "birds" to "bats" is connected?) In addition to the Butterbumps scene, I note other allusions to Sansa being some sort of Mother of Dragons. Her tummy flutters like a bat on several occasions. Pregnant women often describe the first movements of a child in the belly as "flutterings." Bat and dragons are described as having "leathery wings," Rhaego was said to have had a tail and scale, but wings... like a bat. (Why not like a dragon?) Daenerys describes The Harpy as having wings like "a dragon or a bat." Viserion hangs in the Meereenese labyrinth upside down like a bat. I could turn "Sansa" and "bats" into a whole discussion, but the point here is that there is some sort of connection between bat and dragons, and that connection is draw via the wings. And when a winged animal (bird, bat, dragon) is described as fluttering, it's a description of the movement of its wings. Perhaps a hint that GRRM has another dragon (which the chick may ultimately represent) "up his sleeve."

What's the Bulwer gene?

Just a thought. Instead of circles showing how experienced we are in the forums (I have eight), why not have seven-pointed stars?

Thanks for pointing out Ice "drinking the sun" of the red color. I had forgotten that part. In that passage, the Valyrian Steel is described as "stubborn," and Sansa stubbornly refuses to bend her knees during the cloaking ceremony at her wedding. (When Sansa turned, the little man was gazing up at her, his mouth tight, his face as red as her cloak. Suddenly she was ashamed of her stubbornness.) While I recognize that Oathkeeper might symbolize Sansa and Tyrion's union, I can't shake the feeling that their marriage will ultimately be annulled. Whomever Sansa is ultimately married to, I feel her fate is to form a cadet branch of Starks, probably at Harrenhal. If this is the case, perhaps this is the purpose of Ice being forged into two new swords: House Stark will branch into two houses and need two swords for both. (Hmm, and currently Sansa is living at the Gates of the Moon with another cadet branch, House Royce. Foreshadowing, or inspiration for Sansa? Sansa's transformation begins as early as AGoT. She loses Lady and is already associated with bats in the first half of the of AGoT: when Ned takes his daughters to pray in the KL Godswood, Sansa falls asleep during the Hour of the Bat and Arya, during the Hour of the Wolf.) Other possible candidates for one of the swords are Jon (who is half Targaryen and half Stark - if he ultimately survives the Ides of Marsh and publicly acknowledges his parentage), Aegon (if he marries Sansa or Arya), and Rickon (although I'm not sure what the "red" would then symbolize). I share your A+J sentiments, but feel that the chimeric twin theory has merit as well.

There's an "almost anagram" with Sansa, Alayne, and Alysanne. Among theories concerning this that I recall, one is Sansa becoming a Good Queen Alysanne 2.0 figure, carrying a bit of "Sansa" and "Alayne" with her when she becomes queen. Arya and Sansa hide under the identity Cat and Alayne. Catelyn is pronounced "cat eh lynn," which sounds like Cat Alayne. Arya and Sansa are symbolically their mother in new form, like their father's sword Ice is in a new form as Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper. Alayne is also a near anagram of Lyanna and Laena. Will Sansa's role in Winds and Dream bring her closer to a parallel to Lyanna Stark? If so, in which way? Will she marry a Targaryen? Will she give birth to a child at the end of the series? Like Laena Velaryon, Sansa could inherit the throne if Dornish Law was in effect. And Sansa almost does when it's thought that all her siblings are dead. Laena is passed over in the line of succession after a Great Council; Sansa is disinherited in Robb's will. Will we also see her married to a Daemon Targaryen parallel in the series? (Would Harry the Heir possibly parallel Daemon in some way? Or is Tyrion a Daemon parallel? ) In NA mythology, Nissa is the Grandmother Moon. In the series, there's a myth of dragons spawning from a second moon destroyed (read: sacrificed) by the sun. Similarly, the forging Lightbringer in Nissa Nissa's heart is an allegory for conception/birth of a son/savior figure. Catelyn's mother, Minisa Whent, dies in childbed while giving birth to a (stillborn) son. Minisa resembles "my Nissa." Stark also means "strong" in German. I wonder if there's supposed to be a connection in some way between House Stark and House Strong? House Strong once held Harrenhal. It's thought that Sansa might inherit Harrenhal. (Reference imagery of bats with Sansa here. Some think she inherits via LF, then takes over; I think Robb made Sansa Shella Whent's heir, leaving her with her own castle and disinheriting her in the same stroke.) Just being nitpicky: Arya threw a blood orange, not a pomegranate, at Sansa. Tyrion's nose itches when something suspicious occurs. The itching is almost like a sort of "spidey sense." He knows something's wrong with his nose.

A little tidbit I noticed, which I think got lost in the forum update: When Myranda and Alayne speak with Lyn Corbray, they imitate each other. Myranda blurbs something religious, and Alayne plays the smart alec. Corbray gave her a dark look. “Lyonel sends his regrets. He remains at Heart’s Home with his peddler’s daughter, watching her belly swell as if he were the first man who ever got a wench pregnant.” Oh, that’s an open wound, thought Alayne. Lyonel Corbray’s first wife had given him nothing but a frail, sickly babe who died in infancy, and during all those years Ser Lyn had remained his brother’s heir. When the poor woman finally died, however, Petyr Baelish had stepped in and brokered a new marriage for Lord Corbray. The second Lady Corbray was sixteen, the daughter of a wealthy Gulltown merchant, but she had come with an immense dowry, and men said she was a tall, strapping, healthy girl, with big breasts and good, wide hips. And fertile too, it seems. “We are all praying that the Mother grants Lady Corbray an easy labor and a healthy child,” said Myranda. Alayne could not help herself. She smiled and said, “My father is always pleased to be of service to one of Lord Robert’s leal bannermen. I’m sure he would be most delighted to help broker a marriage for you as well, Ser Lyn.” Couple this with the "race" later in the chapter (For just a little while, as she ran, she forget who she was, and where, and found herself remembering bright cold days at Winterfell, when she would race through Winterfell with her friend Jeyne Poole, with Arya running after them trying to keep up.), and we can note a sort of competition between the two. (I won't go to off-topic with this line, but will note various threads concerning Jeyne's jealousy of Sansa, Arya.) Lyn Corbray is an very attractive man: Myranda stopped to gaze across the yard at the knights at their practice. “Now there’s the very sort of husband I need.” Myranda and Sansa are imitating the other because each admires something about the other. Myranda is the older, more experienced woman, and Sansa (through Alayne) wishes to be older. She even makes "Alayne" a year older. Sansa is the more beautiful of the two, and perhaps Myranda admires some of "Alayne's" innocent charm.

I'm still unable to post or reply to other posts on a phone. Any eta when this might be fixed, or details on how to fix it?

I'm having similar problems on my phone. In order to go to the next page, I have to press and hold the "Next" button where the options appear to Open, Open in New Window, etc. Just clicking on the "Next" Button never works. The website appears to require a lot of data when browsing. Not only do pages load slowly, but they also force my internet browser to crash and close. I can usually view up to 10 pages before it crashes and closes on me. Currently, I cannot reply or comment at all on my Android. The General Forum is moving much more slowly (ie # of posts per hour) since the update. I wonder if other users aren't having the same problem.

Awesome. Thanks!

On the old forum, I checked for new comments in threads I posted in via the history on my profile. If I went to my profile and hit "find content" (little gray button on the right) it was there. Now when I go to my history, it only shows my own posts. Is there a way that I can view my history by thread and be able to (as I did on the old forum) check which forum I posted in has new comments?

Trying to understand the rules completely. Heresy is basically a thread series open to crackpottery, no? While I don't support many cp theories (though I have a couple of my own), I'm cool with keeping an open mind and keeping the debates respectful. Did I come to the right place?

asearchoficeandfire.com You're welcome. ;)

And so does Lyn Corbray, whose loyalty to LF is uncertain. If Harry is set up as Lyn's opponent, things may not turn out so well for him.