Benjen

I'll have to agree with Lord Varys asertion that Manderly wouldn't throw his lot in with Bolton. The Manderlys & Botlons have been in active conflict since CoK. Conflict surrounding the Hornwood lands being the named reason for the fighting, but I think the dislike between Bolton & Manderly is a deep one. I think the reading report has a mention of that trouble still going on. Roose was invloved in the Red Wedding too, his alliance with the Freys makes his involvement in that event and the death of Wendel hard to deny. I don't think Manderly is eager to join the Bolton/Frey cause at all. I think Wyman just wants his son Wylis back, if you want to keep the timing of the chapter in context. I'm hoping that the head and hands on the White Harbor walls we heard about in AFFC are just a good smuggler's trick that Davos teaches Lord Wyman. I think the mention of the Bolton/Umber/Cerwyn/Ryswell/etc force moving toward Moat Cailin is important. Alot coming together there. Roose Bolton leads the Northern Foot & the Freys up from the South, Ramsay et al (& Reek of course) coming down from the North... Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover in the Neck at Greywater Watch (or closer)...Robett Glover in White Harbor looking for Men to lead north to Deepwood Motte (yes we know a bit of what happens there later). And perhaps Osha and Rickon are there abouts as well. Hmmm. I need more...

I keep coming back to this part of the Bran DWD reading. And this one from the Mystery Knight preview: Hmmmm

Whichever side of the Coldhands argument you stand on, isn't it nice to have some new aSoIaF material to chew on? I think the bottom line that we can draw from our "exposure" to Coldhands at this point is that GRRM is taking measures to hide the identity of the man he was. GRRM must be doing that for a reason, likely in order to lend weight to the revelation when it comes and maybe for some other plot oriented reason. So what is he waiting for? Is there something else that has to happen before he tells us who Coldhands is? The fact that he is putting that revelation off means it is, for some reason, important to at least Bran's plotline, if not to other plotlines as well. Just a quick addition on BR, Bloodraven went about cloaked and hooded as a rule of thumb. According to GRRM's description of Brynden Rivers to the artist Amok, his MO was to go about cloaked and hooded because of his albinism. Take that for what you will. I'm biased because I want BR to be relevant to the story, but I can think of a number of reasons why making BR = Coldhands plausible to the reader could be rather difficult for GRRM. This chapter has done nothing to dim my hopes about BR, I'll have to say, but I also think it does very little by way of showing us who Coldhands really was/is.

Thanks Jughead! I've been waiting for that chapter for so long.... I think the assertions that the Night's Watch men who were killed were not wights is spot on. The wolves probably wouldn't eat them if they were wightified. Ghost chewed off Jafer Flower's wrist in GoT, but I thought that was more out of anger than hunger, and IIRC the other animals around the group were horrified by the corpse's presence alone. I think it's significant that Bran is "warging" into Hodor on a regular basis now, and that Hodor is becoming acclimated to it. Not entirely unexpected, but it will certainly be important later IMHO. I didn't expect that to happen so quickly. I'd like to think that Coldhands is Bloodraven, but I'm not convinced. All those ravens make me think he could be involved somewhere, but who is to say that Coldhands isn't being controlled from afar as well? Maybe BR is the 3EC, or maybe he's hanging on to the second life in that old raven that likes to bother the LCs of the Night's Watch for corn. Jury is still way out on that one. Is Coldhands Benjen? Not very confident of that either, but I would think that wights keep very little of themselves once they come back. Beric Dondarion lost much of himself after death, but that's likely a different method of resurrection so drawing conclusions from that source may be off base. I'm glad the scene north of the Wall is portayed as it is in this chapter. Do you think they are travelling up the Milkwater? Seems likely. Not a good place to be at all. Reminds me a bit of Nan's tale of the last hero from GoT. The situation doesn't look good for the Reeds though. I wonder if any of them will make it back at all.

[quote name='hackhamster' post='1347705' date='May 8 2008, 15.02']IMHO, Theon fills several roles all at once: [list] [*]A trophy to show other northmen that the Boltons are serious about reclaiming the north from the ironborn [*]A wedding gift for his new wife. With the Bolton/Lannister alliance getting along quite well, I'd think Bolton would have to know that Arya isn't for real, and he'd tell Ramsay. Maybe Theon will make a nice execution to go with the wedding cake, to make up for her dead brothers. Of course, this is just a sham, since Ramsay knows that Bran and Rickon weren't killed by Theon, and should know this really isn't Arya anyways. Just a nice juicy PR event to make it easier for northern bannermen to accept Bolton leadership. [*]A fun squeaky toy for Ramsay. [/list][/quote] That's a pretty nice first post, I must say, and it makes a lot of sense to me (as Ramsay's plan). Ramsay gets to have his perverted style of fun, by killing Theon brutally in front of "Arya". It proves his loyalty to the North's best interests, it will scare the crap out of "Arya" and make her fear Ramsay that much more (which Ramsay seems to prefer), and it removes one of the few people who can definitively say that Bran and Rickon are alive and that "Arya" is a fake from the picture. So I can certainly see that as Ramsay's plan for Theon. But I also think that the actual events in DwD are NOT going to go according to that plan.

[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1322817' date='Apr 21 2008, 13.15']Benjen: Theon is well-known and infamous in the north [i]for being a betrayer and a turncloak whose oaths count for nothing[/i]. I wouldn't use John Walker Lindh as a reference at a job interview, and I wouldn't use Theon to give my realm legitimacy. I'm genuinely surprised that people can't see the problem here.[/quote] OK, OK, I agree Theon is not the guy any sane person would use to give credence to his claims. Theon being used as a catspaw for killing Lord Roose is a really interesting notion. Not sure how good Theon is with a bow at this point, but I suppose it's doable. Ramsay said he's going to war, so perhaps he is hoping to use Theon some other way. As leverage against the garrison at Moat Cailin (like the Frey's did with Edmure at Riverrun)? Ramsay could plan to execute him in front of the remaining Northern Lords and his new bride to prove his commitment?

[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1322684' date='Apr 21 2008, 11.13']Not at all. Highborn girls have regular contact with any number of servants, from maesters to men-at-arms to stableboys to maids and on and on. And even if Theon did have some credibility boost from the regular contact, there's still the issue (that everybody's eliding, apparently) that nobody can trust him. The north in particular would hate him, but I'm not sure why Stannis would be more credulous (given that he's generally sour and suspicious by nature).[/quote] Ramsay could be taking Theon because he is infamous in the North and to some extent well-known. He did live at Winterfell for 10 years and met many of Eddard Stark's bannermen. Pretty much everyone knows his name and have heard tell of his deeds. Theon's knowledge of the Stark children is undoubtable and more importantly, he'll say whatever Ramsay wants him to (I'd bet Ramsay thinks so, anyway).

[quote name='urizen' post='1321667' date='Apr 20 2008, 13.11']Sounds like just the thing Theon needs to escape. It also sounds like this chapter is happening before the "The Wayward Bride" spoiler chapter, seeing how in that chapter the Ironborn has lost quite a bit to the Boltons.[/quote] I agree, that little quote certainly makes me think Ramsay may run into to some unexpected opposition and give Theon a chance to escape.

Thanks for the info. I'm going to have to give GRRM some serious credit if he can make me sympathize for Theon.... I really hate the guy he used to be. It sounds like Theon doesn't have much will power left to contest Ramsay B (i.e. he's been mentally broken, and bad). So I doubt he would contradict Ramsay to his face about his wife. The fact that he's been picked to go with Ramsay to go meet "Arya" is important, considering Theon has been a prisoner for so long. It's probably so Ramsay can tell Theon exactly what he's supposed to do and say when they get back to the Dreadfort to confirm "Arya's" identity. Something tells me that trip to meet "Arya" isn't going to go as planned either. Looking at Theon's current state, he doesn't appear to be good for much but his "king's blood". And being burned to death may be a merciful end considering what he's been through. Sometimes death is better... Edit: because I've forgotten grammar and how to spell check.

I'm beginning to think there's more "auto-pilot" to the wights and their MO then a back and forth communcation with some "wightmaster" with perceptions and commands being relayed back and forth constantly. We've seen enough of the wights "herdlike" nature to support that assertion. The wights are attracted to the living and are imbued with a will to snuff that life out. Seems pretty simple. That the wights attack specific groups or targets is also evident in the books, which implies either the influence of a higher intelligence (not much, but enough), or the fact that the "auto-pilot" imbued in the wights starts to incorporate the memories of the wight itself and thus develop "prime lives" or targets to snuff out. We just don't know enough yet, but something tells me this mystery will be much clearer by the time I reach the end of DwD. I can only hope.

Let's remember that the wights, even if they are indeed subjected to some kind of "warg-like" influence, are DEAD people. And dead men tell no tales (with their mouths anyway). Not to mention the fact that the Others are obviously not human. The Others speak, sure, we've seen that, but it may not be very similar to human language nor possible to vocalize with human vocal chords (not that I think GRRM is thinking that scientifically about all this). Another thing to recall are the differnces in skinchanging methodology that Varamyr brings to light in the DwD prologue. There's the "gentle way", which Bran would be a good example of, where there is somewhat of a "shared" conciousness between warg and host. And then there's the "forceful way", which Varamyr seemed to use, where he forces his way into an animal and subverts the conciousness of the host (or even displacing another warg whose residing in the host in the Second Life). There is no conciousness in the dead to force out. So, if we were to carry the theory through, the demeanor of the wight or wights would represent almost totally the will and demeanor of the Others.

[quote name='Roi Woodt' post='1305780' date='Apr 8 2008, 08.57']Really? Because one of the Wights walked to the Lord Commander's office, or is there more evidence that points towards this, perhaps I have forgotten something. The Others are clearly intelligent, maybe they already knew how to reach the Lord Commander's room, maybe the Wight went there accidently, maybe the Other that was looking trough the eyes of the Wight was a smart one and figured out that some sort of important person had to be in that tower. Imo, there could be more then one reason why the Wight was able to walk directly to Mormont's room.[/quote] Well, there was the fact that Jafer and Othor were found so very close to Castle Black. I doubt the Others knew at that point which gates could be opened, but Jafer and Othor sure did. I can see where that one is debatable though... And while Othor the wight went after LC Mormont, Jafer the wight went after and killed Ser Jaremy Rykker, who was second in charge of the rangers behind Benjen. I doubt the Others knew that or figured it out because of the layout of Castle Black.

I have been thinking that the Others are in some sense "warging" the wights and lending them the volition to move, though the wights do seem to retain some trace of memory that the Others have access to. The demeanor of the wights certainly appears to reflect that of the Others, and there is the blue glowing eyes of the wights, so very much like the Others. How else could the wights sense Varamyr when he warged into the wolf One-Eye for the second life unless those that give them their power sensed his arrival? Varamyr also said that once an animal has been bonded by a warg, any warg can wear it's skin, which would support Coldhands once being a wight but being "taken" by a more powerful (or proximate) warg. As to Jafer and Othor (the wight brothers), I think that's where they were when dawn came on the morning they were found. In the GoT prologue Will saw what he thought were dead wildlings lying around their camp, but they were wights lying like the dead during the day. When the NW brothers returned to the scene after the sun went down the wights were gone, and the Others were waiting. The Others can't do their work in daylight and therefore the wights can't either because the wight in and of itself is a dead thing, and there is no will available to drive a wight when the sun is up.

[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1295418' date='Mar 31 2008, 18.01']Ever since I read this last night, I've been wondering: what on earth does Alliser Thorne do now? Jon has raised the stakes, definitely, and set things up so that Alliser can't officially complain (what with Slynt refusing an order in full view of dozens of brothers and all); but at the same time Alliser can't be any kind of schemer if he allows Jon to simply kill his patron right in front of him with no response. He has to make some kind of move in retaliation, but what?[/quote] I've been wondering about that as well. At first I thought Jon may issue the same command he gave Slynt to Thorne. Sending Thorne away would be tempting, but after some thought I realized that Jon can't do that now. Thorne knows he's in mortal danger and would react accordingly if given time to build his own garrison. I think Thorne will seek out those who are known to dislike Jon, like Rattleshirt and discontented brothers. I think Sweet Donnel Hill is back among the watch, and he was a conspiritor against Mormont and seems to smile alot.... In Jon's shoes I would keep Thorne really close and really busy. (Keep your friends at your back and your enemies where you can see them).