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Everything posted by WSmith84

  1. What an interesting hypothesis! The idea of Mirri using her own lifeforce to heal Drogo, thus sparing her the pain of a Dothraki death... really interesting. Strangely, the idea that Mirri's magic somehow manipulated events to cause so much death and bring Dany back into the tent reminds me of the idea that Melisandre burning the leeches somehow caused the three kings to die. While not exact parallels (as in there might be no actual magic in the burning of the leeches) it suggests a magic that is incredibly powerful and yet subtle - it manipulates the minds of many, leading to the desired outcome, with none of them seemingly aware of what's been done. I've never really believed that Mirri intended to kill Rhaego either. Her instructions and behaviour afterwards just don't tally if that's the case. If the magic would have killed Rhaego whether or not Dany entered the tent, then why give the instruction to not enter? Mirri couldn't have known that Dany would be brought inside and thus the instruction offers no protection or anything. And if Mirri did know that Dany would be brought inside, why instruct Dany to not enter the tent? 'To give herself plausible deniability!' OK, but Dany does enter the tent and thus Mirri now has a perfect alibi: 'you entered the tent when I explicitly warned you not to' but Mirri doesn't attempt to defend herself at all. The defence might not have convinced Dany, or bought Mirri a kinder fate, but why set up a scenario where you give yourself a decent defence for a murder you're about to commit only then to never actually use said defence? It seems to me a contradiction - either Mirri thought Rhaego would die whether Dany entered the tent or not (in which case there's no need for the warning to stay out) or Mirri thought Dany needed to be in the tent for Rhaego to die (in which case ordering Dany to leave seems... incomprehensible).
  2. What Dolorous Gabe said. And she can always use it as a method of mutually assured destruction. And even leaving out an angry Sansa (assume she either dies or is too stupid to be angry at LF) she offers no benefit in Winterfell. Again, it's not about LF really caring about her (I have no doubt he'd cut her throat if the price was good enough) but about him not risking a piece needlessly. Maybe LF didn't anticipate a letter from Cersei, but surely he intended to tell her about the marriage regardless. Because otherwise he was relying on a Stannis victory to potentially get anything out of the Sansa-Ramsey marriage. Without telling Cersei, he doesn't have the Crown's permission to take the Vale armies North, nor does he get the reward of Warden of the North from Cersei.
  3. Why would Roose Bolton admit it? He can deny that he did it to Cersei and still retain the Northern Lords. And if Cersei asks him if he married his heir to Ramsey, he'd know who informed on him and realise LF was his enemy. Also, LF is lying to Cersei one way or the other. One is claiming Ramsey married Sansa when they didn't, the other is lying that the Boltons did it and he wasn't involved. LF conspired to murder Cersei's son; I think he's brave enough to risk lying to her. Roose was brave enough to wed his heir to Sansa even though it would make the Crown his enemy if they found out; I think he's prepared to risk lying to her. Besides, at the end of this, LF is either allied with Stannis or he's sitting on an alliance between the North and Vale (and potentially the Riverlands). I'm afraid that character X does Y so that means it's 'in-character' isn't really how it works. Evil character does evil thing is in-character. Very clever character does stupid thing is not.
  4. At no point did I say Littlefinger wouldn't do this thing because he's too honourable/nice/[insert adjective here]. What I did say is that LF would not risk a game piece, no matter the value, without good reason. LF tells Cersei that Sansa has married Ramsey. Cersei asks for no evidence (and LF has none to give). Cersei then gives him the Crown's permission to take the armies of the Vale to crush the Boltons. Now, why even bother actually wedding Sansa to Ramsey? Just tell Cersei that they married and you achieve the same result. How will she check on this? Is she going to write to Roose Bolton and ask? He'll deny it either way. Will she rely on spies in the North? Well surely those spies would also mention that it was LF who brought Sansa there. Now, in the various outcomes of Stannis vs Boltons, Sansa being in Winterfell doesn't aid LF at all. LF gets a better outcome in all possible scenarios if he simply lies to Cersei that Sansa married Ramsey. 1) Stannis wins, Sansa marries Well, here LF (if he wants to ally with Stannis) has to explain why he arranged a marriage between the last Stark and Stannis' enemies. Sansa's life is at risk during the battle/siege of Winterfell. Stannis may simply kill LF for treason against him. If LF wishes to fight Stannis, Stannis could attempt to use Sansa as a hostage against either LF or the Lords of the Vale (Royce, for instance) or he could attempt to rally the remaining Northerners around Sansa by naming her Wardeness of the North. If Sansa survives, she will be very very angry with LF; so angry, in fact, that she might tell the Vale Lords about Lysa's death. 2) Stannis wins, LF lies Here, LF can present Sansa to the triumphant Stannis. Stannis is grateful, or at least, as grateful as Stannis can be. Sansa will be named Wardeness of the North and LF may be allowed to marry her (if he so wishes) securing an alliance between the Vale and North. Sansa is not at risk for any of this and she will be much better inclined towards LF, though she may reject the marriage proposal (and has Lysa's death as her trump card). If LF wishes to fight Stannis, Stannis has no hostage or Stark rallying point. 3) Boltons win, Sansa marries LF now has to lead the armies of the Vale against the weakened Bolton army. The Boltons will attempt to use Sansa as a hostage (again, against either LF or the Vale Lords). Roose might even write to KL to inform Cersei that LF was the one who arranged the marriage, in an attempt to bring down LF with himself. Sansa is at risk in the battle/siege of Winterfell and the second one with the Vale. If she survives, she will be very very angry with LF; so angry, in fact, that she might tell the Vale Lords about Lysa's death. Cersei might uphold her bargain to name LF Warden of the North. 4) Bolton wins, LF lies LF leads Vale armies against the Boltons. The Boltons have no hostage. Roose could write to KL and make something up in an attempt to bring LF down. Cersei might uphold her bargain to name LF Warden of the North. Sansa will be grateful that LF rid her home of the family that killed hers. LF might propose a marriage to her; maybe she will accept. Now, in which of these scenarios does actually marrying Sansa to Ramsey benefit Littlefinger? Answer: none. Lying is better: it costs him nothing, he doesn't have to risk a piece needlessly, Sansa is more inclined to help and trust him and much less likely to reveal the truth about Lysa. End result; Littlefinger's plan is stupid.
  5. Yes, that was my suggestion. Simply lie to Cersei that Ramsey married Sansa. Do you honestly think Cersei, whether the marriage actually takes place or not, is going to write to Roose Bolton and ask him if it's true? And if it is, surely Roose would simply deny it? He's not going to confess, and if for some reason he did, surely he would mention that it was LF who brought Sansa to him? There is actually a good question here of why Roose simply didn't wait for LF to leave and then send a raven to Cersei telling her that he had Sansa (a wanted fugitive) and that it was LF who brought her there. Also, LF doesn't require the assistance of Roose in any of the scenarios suggested. LF is just waiting for him to be beaten by Stannis or for him to beat Stannis so that LF can finish off Roose afterwards.
  6. Which Lords Paramount are you referring to here? Roose? Because I somehow doubt he's planning to confess, whether or not he has Sansa. And if Cersei has spies in the North who can confirm that Sansa is there, wouldn't they also mention the fact that Littlefinger was in Winterfell as well? I doubt that Cersei has such spies though; Littlefinger didn't have the spies necessary to inform him about Ramsey's true nature (confirmed by the writers) so I doubt a Varys-less Cersei did. So lying about Sansa being there would seem to work just fine.
  7. Oh and frankly, digs at critics' intelligence just makes you look petty and childish.
  8. Except it was pretty clear in the episode that Cersei was arrested that Lancel had confessed. Why would he do so on LF's orders? Varys called LF the most dangerous man in Westeros. LF has gone from Lord of the Fingers to Lord Paramount of the Trident and Lord Protector of the Vale. He is meant to be a very good player of the game. Surely one of the first questions that they would ask is: how did she get from the Vale to Winterfell? And the only reasonable explanation is: Littlefinger took her there. And there were a bunch of Vale knights to witness it. But of course, wasn't the argument that the Vale Lords will follow LF and we snobby book-readers have to accept it? So why does LF need Sansa in Winterfell as their motivation at all?
  9. Wait, Lancel was the 'handsome young man' that he offered Olenna? Seriously? What leverage does he have over Lancel? Ah, and it's the snobby book readers who are vitriolic... *Sigh* Whether or not LF cares about Sansa is irrelevant. It's the fact that he's risking a game piece needlessly. No good player risks a piece, not even a pawn, if they don't have to.
  10. In the scenarios I proposed where Sansa stays in the Vale, LF simply tells Cersei that Sansa has married Ramsey. She asks for no evidence and he has none to offer anyway, except his word. So why even bother with the marriage? Cersei gives him the full go-ahead without a shred of proof, so just tell Cersei that Sansa married Ramsey but leave her in the Vale. Cersei is stupid enough to name a man who is already Lord Paramount of the Riverlands and Lord Protector of the Vale the Warden of the North.
  11. LF offers Cersei no evidence of his assertion. She just accepts it when he tells her. So why the need to actually put Sansa there?
  12. First of all, I disagree that Sansa has only one value. She is half-Stark, half-Tully and, as far as many are concerned, the only surviving Stark. And I also think that LF wants Sansa. But let's leave those things aside. Stannis wins, Sansa marries Ramsey OK, so in this scenario, presumably some of the first things Stannis will want to know are: why did Sansa marry Ramsey, who got her out of KL and who arranged this marriage. If LF chooses to attempt to ally with Stannis, Stannis will want to know why LF arranged the marriage, essentially working against Stannis. If LF chooses to fight Stannis, it risks getting Sansa killed. If he wins, LF will be named Warden of the North. Perhaps he could marry Sansa, though that would make him an enemy of the Crown and I have no idea why she would agree to it. Stannis wins, Sansa remains in Vale Here, LF can present Sansa to Stannis (if he wishes to ally with him) and claim (truthfully) that he got Sansa out of KL. Stannis will presumably name her Wardeness of the North and LF could offer to marry her to secure an alliance between the Vale and the North. If LF wants to fight Stannis, Sansa is not at risk. Stannis loses, Sansa marries Ramsey Assuming that Sansa survives the battle/siege, the Boltons now have a hostage to use against the Vale when they arrive. If she survives this battle/siege against the Vale, I suppose LF could marry her to secure his Warden of the North title, although in this case she has plenty of reason to say no, and of course he'll be making himself an enemy of the Crown. Stannis loses, Sansa stays in the Vale Assuming LF wins, he is now Warden of the North. He could marry Sansa (and in this scenario she might be more inclined to say yes) or not. In all scenarios possible, Sansa being in Winterfell doesn't help at all. It either hinders LF's goals, or does nothing. So putting her there is a completely pointless risk that has no positive outcome.
  13. Littlefinger could just tell Cersei that Sansa married Ramsey without actually doing it. She doesn't ask for any evidence and he has none to give anyway. Putting Sansa there just risks a valuable piece in the battle or siege for Winterfell. And Sansa could have said at Moat Cailin 'er, no I don't want to marry Ramsey. And if you try to make me, I'm sure all of these Vale knights would be interested in how Lysa died.' She had plenty of choice. Littlefinger's plan is so stupid it's actually moronic.
  14. Alfie Allen should have been front and centre this season. He's a great actor and probably would have done brilliantly with Dance's material. Some confessions, prayers and pleading to the Heart Tree would have helped externalise his inner thoughts. And his line about being with Robb when he died would have been such a beautiful moment.
  15. Well, I guess I care that supposedly intelligent characters do some thing monumentally stupid just to service the plot. And again, Roose makes the Boltons the enemy of the Crown, their only allies, in exchange for some legitimacy. Ridiculous. They removed most of Theon's stuff, the tension with the Northern Lords, the mysterious killer in Winterfell, Frey Pies and Manderly in exchange for Sansa being raped and Ramsey having a girlfriend. Each to their own I guess. I'd rather have Sansa's small steps to becoming a political player than have her have no character development (actually character regression) in a plot that requires me to shut down my mental faculties. It did have some good acting from Alfie Allen. Just a shame he was so wasted.
  16. Ok fair enough, you thought S5 was great. Please explain to me then the Winterfell story. Why did Roose, Littlefinger and Sansa all agree to it? Because they all had much better reasons not to agree with it than to agree with it. Littlefinger Leaving aside whether he actually cares about Sansa, there is no way in hell that he risks one of his most valuable pieces in such a manner. He expects Winterfell to be attacked or put under siege. Either puts Sansa in danger and the whole risk is pointless. He could simply lie to Cersei that Sansa is married to Ramsey, since she asks for no proof and he has no proof either way. Roose Roose gains a little credibility in marrying Ramsey to Sansa, but no much else. And seeing as there were no Northern lords even present at the wedding, I'm not sure what the point was. By doing this however, he makes an enemy of the Crown, the only people backing him. Now maybe the Crown won't send an army North, but there's plenty of other stuff they could do: cut off trade to the North, fund other Northern houses to remove the Boltons, hire assassins etc. A lot of risk for Roose for so little gain. Sansa Well, what does Sansa get from this marriage? A chance for revenge, apparently. But LF gives her no way to achieve this, just one tip: to make Ramsey hers (which she goes about in the worst manner possible). And this requires her to remove herself from the safety of the Vale (where she can say a word to Royce about Lysa's true fate and have LF killed) and put herself in the arms of those that murdered her brother and mother. Winterfell was very poorly done this year and a tragic waste of brilliant source material.
  17. Firstly, the majority of Dorne is in Feast, not Dance. Secondly, one bad line doesn't mean that there isn't any good dialogue in Dorne. How about Doran's Fire & Blood speech, or Ellaria's speech about the futility of revenge? Thirdly, I don't consider Varys and Tyrion stroking each other's ego-cocks to be great dialogue. And finally, I would take Darkstar's ridiculous line over any of the televised turd that was Dorne this year.
  18. Was that the dialogue with the 'break the wheel speech'? :ack: And both Tyrion and Dany forgetting half of the Great Houses (three of which are very likely to be important in future seasons)? And Dany regressing to season 1 where she thinks that the common people of Westeros will back her? Great dialogue. There was some great dialogue, like the scene between Stannis and Shireen at CB. Then they went and ruined that with their utterly contrived scenario of having her burnt.
  19. Dorne in the show was significantly worse than anything that appeared in Feast or Dance. It was outright terrible TV and nothing like its book counterpart. Winterfell was also done horrendously on the show and was a waste of some of the best book material available. The Winterfell story required Sansa, Roose and LF to all sustain serious head injuries for that plot to go forward. And Stannis' decision was so contrived. Stannis, the greatest military commander in Westeros, did the following: 1) Burns his daughter leaving himself without an heir if he dies 2) Burns his only daughter and heir alive without being told what this would actually achieve by a woman whose record with King's Blood is only 67% 3) Can't guard his stores and siege weapons against 20 frigging men 4) Is somehow surprised that sellswords might abandon him after burning his daughter and heir 5) Somehow doesn't hear 500 men abandon camp during the night, then doesn't hear half of his army abandon him during the night either 6) Somehow intends to take Winterfell in a siege without horses or siege weapons or the food necessary to starve Winterfell out Military genius my arse.
  20. Yeah, compared with previous seasons this one has been very lacklustre. One thing was the contrived writing. Another is, imo, their dedication to adhering to plot points even if the changes they have made no longer allow the point to happen organically. Incidentally, Dance is my second favourite book, but it's not as well written as the first three. It just contains some of my favourite chapters.
  21. That's the attitude of many on this forum, probably even the majority. I dislike the insinuation though that this season has been the worst due to its poorer source material, considering that most of this season's problems were not related to that. Most of the better stuff this year adhered closely to the books, whilst the worst stuff (Dorne, Winterfell) were major deviations.
  22. I just checked the GoT wiki, and it says that Lancel entered a sexual relationship with Cersei following Robert's death. Is this incorrect, or did the writers (once again) forget what has actually been established?
  23. Isn't a Queen's adultery treason in pretty much any medieval monarchy? Let's face it, if a Queen is committing adultery, the legitimacy of her children will be called into question. There's no real way the show can say that it isn't treason and maintain any realism.
  24. I was reminded of this during Tyrion's conversation with Dany, where they are discussing which Great Houses might support her. He only mentioned 4. They could have mentioned the others, especially seeing how the Greyjoys, Arryns and Martells all look to be a big part of season 6. Just something like 'The Greyjoys want independence; you'll have to subjugate them as Aegon once did. The Tullys are either dead, captured or missing; the Freys rule the Riverlands now and they're the most hated family in Westeros. Destroy them and the Riverlands will flock to your banner. The Martells are still angry over the deaths of Elia and her children, and now Oberyn Martell lies dead as well. They may well support you, though the heir to Dorne is betrothed to my niece Myrcella. The Gods only know what the Arryns will do.' How much screentime would that have required?
  25. Agreed. They could have silenced a lot of criticism about them forgetting the Riverlands if they had just given us a line like 'the Blackfish made it back to Riverrun before the Freys. He's holding it in the Stark name; the Freys have laid siege.' Sieges take a long time, so that would have done fine for a year or two at least.
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