Role in WoW: Jon Snow (Spoilers):

[Lord_Tyrell]

Honestly, I'm kind of hoping that Jon just dies and that's it. I mean at this point everyone seems to be expecting that he'll live on in some fashion, because it's been a convention established not only in this series but in fantasy fiction and heroic protagonists in general. The good guy always survives... and of COURSE he's also the prophecied Savior too who'll do his battle with the underworld and come back with magical powers to slay the evil villains and save the princess and blah blah blah.

Sure Martin subverted this with Ned... except the result was everyone just concluded that Ned wasn't "really" the protagonist in the first place and so the subversion was that we thought he was, not that the protagonist was killed off for real, so we can still cling to the trope of the heroic protagonist in Jon.

A hope that must be extinguished.

How about he dies, and Mel realizes that he WAS Azor Azhai Reborn, but now he's gotta be Reborn again, so while he's doing that, everyone's got to survive the Winter on their own without a magical savior.

Except for Dany of course. Which is why she should die too. But that's another subject.

Conventions are there for a reason: they work. If Jon is dead for good, then basically all of his chapters have been pointless and the Others may as well have plowed through the Wall almost completely unopposed. Ned's and Robb's death served a great purpose to propel the story forward, but all Jon will be remembered as is the Lord Commander who lost the Wall. Jon has to be brought back, otherwise that is bad writing and GRRM just being defiant on story structure just for the hell of it.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

I think that Jon will be very prominent in the next novel, and have the most POV chapters. The thing that we've been told a lot about warging is how quickly the animal's mind will overcome your own once you merge with it permanently, not to mention that they'll burn Jon's and the others bodies as soon as they can. I think he'll be revived close to the start of the novel and only be "dead" for a day or two tops.

Lets hope, somebody's gotta fill those POV's

At least we know

it won't be Quentyn

[Lady Kissed By Fire]

I want to say that GRRM will just kill him and be done with it, only because of his fans speculating that Jon will live.

Then again, that would serve no purpose to the story. So my number one pick would be that somehow, Mel brings him back Dondarrion style. My number 2 pick would be him warging into Ghost, though I don't see how that would be too benificial to the story line. That seems to me like it would be something more likely to happen to Bran, rather than Jon.

[Crimson King]

I am not sure if this was ever brought up, but I am under the impression that what will happen is that Jon will be brought back by Mel, but will loose a part of his memory. And because of that, he will be unable to tell that Jeyne is not Arya. And when the real Arya arrives (if they are ever reunited), he will start by rejecting her. That would be typical of GRRM, I think. Always playing with the reader's expectations, and making things go wrong when you think something good will happen. It seems to me that this theory works with all that was established in the story until now. There is no deus ex machina in ASOIAF; things always have consequences. When characters are brought back from the dead, there are heavy consequences, and unlikely salvation is never without cost. Also, this road would have great drama potential, in particular for Arya, Jon being arguably the only person she cares about anymore.

[SerLarge]

I hope Jon is fully dead. Will make for a good but annoying twist. He tried to bring wildlings and the nights watch together against the white walkers. Now they will fight each other and the wall will fall.

Every Starks ambitions are met with tragedy.

[Lord Greystark]

The turn cloaks in the Night's Watch will be dealt with sooner or later by either:

1. Ghost

2. Summer

3. Shaggydog

4. Tormund

5. Melisandre

6. Benjen Stark

7. Stannis

8. Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun

9. Mance

[CockroachCaptain]

For the purposes of discussion, let's just assume that Jon is somehow alive in his own body and move forward from there.

Obviously after being betrayed, he's no longer going to be Lord Commander. He was the linchpin keeping Castle Black from exploding into chaos, so I wouldn't be surprised if he woke up to find the Wildlings in control. We know from the Theon chapter that "Arya" is being sent to the the Wall, so once Jon figures out it's just Jeyne, he'll no longer have cause to go after Ramsay.

So where does he go from here? Back North of the Wall to fight the Others directly? To Eastwatch to try and avert disaster there? South to find Howland Reed and discover his "true" heritage?

Well for starters, I think Melisandre keeps his resurrection a secret, much like Mance's survival with the aid of a glamour. Without command of the NW, he's no longer safe from the Wildlings. But if he's Azor Ahai reborn, his purpose is still to fight the Others and prevent their invasion of Westeros. I found it very telling that Tormund revealed to Jon that the horn of Joramun is still out there somewhere (I don't buy the theory that Sam's horn is it), and I think finding it and destroying it will become Jon's primary quest.

But before he goes, he's going to need to save Shireen. Because of her affliction and their superstition, Val and the Wildlings will want her dead. Mel might make a push to burn her, since she has king's blood and Selyse wouldn't be much resistance. Jon's not going to let that happen, so he steals her away, making for a nice parallel to Davos' search for Rickon. Patchface comes too.

Their search will take them to the Nightfort. It's common knowledge that it was Joramun and one of the Kings in the North who joined forces to defeat the Night's King, so it only makes sense that some clue to the horn's whereabouts would be hidden there. The recent attempts to make the Nightfort suitable for Stannis will have uncovered it, and I think it will direct them to the seat of the King in the North.... Winterfell.

Who will be in control of it when they arrive? Likely still Ramsay, but Stannis is a possibility. At any rate, they're going to meet someone important there: Howland Reed, aka the Ghost in Winterfell. He came looking for his children after their disappearance with the Stark boys and stayed to keep an eye on things. Jon will finally learn of his true parentage in the crypts beneath Winterfell where the mysterious contents of Lyanna's tomb include Rhaegar's harp (hence A Song of Ice and Fire).

Further inspection of the crypts will uncover the true horn of Joramun, taken by the King in the North. His relief will be short-lived, because Patchface will blow it, fulfilling Melisandre's vision of him surrounded by skulls (the tombs) and lips red with blood (blowing the horn). What that will bring, R'hllor only knows.

So there's my crackpot theory for the day.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

For the purposes of discussion, let's just assume that Jon is somehow alive in his own body and move forward from there.

Obviously after being betrayed, he's no longer going to be Lord Commander. He was the linchpin keeping Castle Black from exploding into chaos, so I wouldn't be surprised if he woke up to find the Wildlings in control. We know from the Theon chapter that "Arya" is being sent to the the Wall, so once Jon figures out it's just Jeyne, he'll no longer have cause to go after Ramsay.

So where does he go from here? Back North of the Wall to fight the Others directly? To Eastwatch to try and avert disaster there? South to find Howland Reed and discover his "true" heritage?

Well for starters, I think Melisandre keeps his resurrection a secret, much like Mance's survival with the aid of a glamour. Without command of the NW, he's no longer safe from the Wildlings. But if he's Azor Ahai reborn, his purpose is still to fight the Others and prevent their invasion of Westeros. I found it very telling that Tormund revealed to Jon that the horn of Joramun is still out there somewhere (I don't buy the theory that Sam's horn is it), and I think finding it and destroying it will become Jon's primary quest.

But before he goes, he's going to need to save Shireen. Because of her affliction and their superstition, Val and the Wildlings will want her dead. Mel might make a push to burn her, since she has king's blood and Selyse wouldn't be much resistance. Jon's not going to let that happen, so he steals her away, making for a nice parallel to Davos' search for Rickon. Patchface comes too.

Their search will take them to the Nightfort. It's common knowledge that it was Joramun and one of the Kings in the North who joined forces to defeat the Night's King, so it only makes sense that some clue to the horn's whereabouts would be hidden there. The recent attempts to make the Nightfort suitable for Stannis will have uncovered it, and I think it will direct them to the seat of the King in the North.... Winterfell.

Who will be in control of it when they arrive? Likely still Ramsay, but Stannis is a possibility. At any rate, they're going to meet someone important there: Howland Reed, aka the Ghost in Winterfell. He came looking for his children after their disappearance with the Stark boys and stayed to keep an eye on things. Jon will finally learn of his true parentage in the crypts beneath Winterfell where the mysterious contents of Lyanna's tomb include Rhaegar's harp (hence A Song of Ice and Fire).

Further inspection of the crypts will uncover the true horn of Joramun, taken by the King in the North. His relief will be short-lived, because Patchface will blow it, fulfilling Melisandre's vision of him surrounded by skulls (the tombs) and lips red with blood (blowing the horn). What that will bring, R'hllor only knows.

So there's my crackpot theory for the day.

George??

[CockroachCaptain]

George??

I wish.

[Ricarprs]

I agree with most of what CockroachCaptain has to say because it is, after all, A song of ICE (John Snow) and Fire (Daenerys).

The Targaryens marry cousins, sisters whatever so this would be in keeping with a Targaryen dynasty. I don't think I'm spilling any beans by saying John is royal blood on both sides, and though a bastard, not Eddard's.

The final point of it all is going to be that all these mass and individual killings, betrayals, upheavals, etc. in the 7 books are but a hiccup in the long Targaryen dynasty.

[Stormborn36]

My theories for the North in the first part of TWoW (I need to get this out of the way before I can get to Jon's role in particular):

Right near the start of the book we get Theon's sample chapter and a Davos chapter. Davos has landed back in the North with Rickon, Osha, Shaggydog and an army of Skagosi. The army is planning to march to Winterfell. Through flashbacks we get the story of how he found Rickon.

Back at Stannis' camp we get two/three chapters. Theon's execution is interrupted by the Manderly and Frey forces and a short battle ensues. The Manderlys turn on the Freys and slaughter them. Wyman approaches Stannis and explains that he is on Stannis side, but the king replies that Wyman killed Davos. Wyman explains the deception and that Davos was sent to retrieve Rickon. Theon is declared innocent of killing the Stark boys, but Stannis is swift to remind him that he is still a turncloak and will still be executed. Wyman stops Stannis saying that they can still use Theon and Asha to treat with the Iron Islands. Stannis agrees to send Asha to Castle Black for her safety (with 'Arya'), but Theon will remain with Stannis as he knows information about Winterfell that could be advantageous.

Theon is with Stannis, who is outside Winterfell. We learn through Theon's thoughts that the plan is to disguise Stannis' men with the armour from the Frey soldiers so they can get inside without raising suspicion. When inside Wyman will present Roose with the head of a dead soldier that resembles Stannis, and will say that Theon and 'Arya' had already been sent to Castle Black when he got there. When they are in position, Stannis and Wymans men will turn on the Boltons when they don't expect it. Theon and Stannis hear a commotion and horns sound from inside the castle, and it is assumed that the plan has begun. The gates open and Wyman welcomes them into the Castle, and Winterfell falls to Stannis. Wyman tells them that Roose was killed in the fighting, and Ramsay, who ran off when the Wyman told them of Theon's 'escape', was captured sending off a raven to Castle Black. Ramsay is brought in front of Stannis, who declares that Ramsay will be given to the Red God. As Ramsay is dragged off he notices Theon and starts cursing.

NOTE: Everything above here would happen, chronologically, at the same time as the last section of ADwD, and before Jon's assassination.

We then get the first Melisadre chapter, which is set in the chaos just after Jon's death. Tormund is furious, but as he is outnumbered he decides to flee back to Oakenshield instead of trying to fight. Jon's corpse is placed in an ice cell. Melisandre watches all of this from the tower with Selyse and Shireen. Melisandre advises them to leave in the chaos while they can and take refuge in the Nightfort, while she stays behind to represent them. They agree.

We might get an Asha chapter to update us on them.

At Winterfell (where news is yet to reach them of the events at the Wall) Ramsay is burnt while Theon watches on. After Ramsay is dead Stannis takes council with the Northern Lords, and has Ramsay and Mance brought before them. They discuss what to do with the pair. Before they can reach a decision, however, a guard bursts in saying that a strange army has appeared outside Winterfell. Stannis tells them to chuck Theon and Mance in cells while they sort out the situation.

Davos stands at the gate of Winterfell with Rickon and a Skagosi Lord. They are let in and brought before Stannis (who almost smiles at seeing Davos again). There is a brief reunion, then Wyman comes forward and thanks Davos for "bringing the North their Stark... Their king". The northerners turn on Stannis and start slaughtering his men. Davos instantly springs into action to defend his king. Stannis manages to escape but Davos is killed. The chapter ends with chants of "King in the North!"

At the Wall we learn through Melisandre's thoughts that Bowen has sealed the gates and ceased all patrols North of the Wall. Bowen meets with her to discuss her position now that Stannis is dead. She replies that she means to head to the Nightfort to join with Selyse and Shireen. As Bowen begins to tell her that they are no longer welcome in the Nightfort they are interrupted by a watchmen who informs them that a group from Stannis' army has arrived. It is Asha, Jeyne and their guards (which probably includes Tris and Qarl). Asha informs them of what happened and Stannis/Wyman's plan to take Winterfell. Melisandre is quick to point out that it could mean the news of Stannis' death was false. Bowen agrees to let her stay until more news arrives from Winterfell. Jeyne's identity also comes to light in the chapter.

We get a Theon chapter updating us on Winterfell. He is visited by Osha and Rickon. I also think Mance will have been killed.

Back at the Wall Stannis arrives and is shown to Melisandre. He tells her of the events at Winterfell and demands to know why she deceived him in regards to Mance. She replies that it was the will of The Lord of light. She then informs him of Jon's death and that they will no longer be welcome at the Wall, and also lets slip that his sword isn't actually lightbringer. Seeing that his cause is completely lost, Stannis (the brittle iron) breaks, and leaves in silence (Melisandre assumes that he is going to the Nightfort). Melisandre then looks into the flames and reflects on her multiple mistakes with 'Arya' and on Stannis' failure. She finally realises that she has been trying to force prophecy and that Jon is actually Azor Ahai. She goes to his corpse in the ice cell and gives it the kiss of life.

Now, after half a book of being dead I can finally get to Jon's role in TWoW:

I think his arc will start immediately after the final Melisandre chapter. He will be warged into ghost then return to his body when she gives it the kiss of life. As he died, his vows to the Watch will be over. Upon hearing news about Rickon I think he will ride south to be with him (joined by Jeyne. As well as Asha and her men). He will then act as Rickon's regent for the second half of TWoW.

As regent I think his main focus will be to prepare the North for the fight against the Others. I think he will also summon Selyse and Tormund from the Wall. He will name Tormund Lord of the Dreadfort, and from Selyse he will learn that Stannis never arrived at the Nightfort. I also think he will send Asha and Theon back to the Iron Islands after making them swear that they will overthrow Euron and prepare the forces of the Iron Islands to fight the Others.

For ADoS:

I think the Wall will collapse in the prologue (After Sam blows his horn, that got repaired in Oldtown, in the final chapter of TWoW), and Stannis will be revealed to have allied himself with the Others. Jon's first half of ADoS would be focused trying (and failing) to lead the North against the Others. They will gradually get beaten back and will be forced to flee south. On the way through the Neck the remnant of the North will stop at Greywater Watch. It is there that we finally meet Howland Reed and get R+L=J around halfway through the book.

Just about all this makes A TON of sense to me. Very well thought out and would make a great northern story for TWOW. The only part that gets a bit iffy for me is Stannis siding with the white walkers. Also, somewhere in this Bran needs to connect with Jon and the northern storyline through visions or warging or whatnot. However, I think a lot of this can happen.

[Ser Tahu]

Just about all this makes A TON of sense to me. Very well thought out and would make a great northern story for TWOW. The only part that gets a bit iffy for me is Stannis siding with the white walkers. Also, somewhere in this Bran needs to connect with Jon and the northern storyline through visions or warging or whatnot. However, I think a lot of this can happen.

Thank you.

For Stannis, I must admit that it is my single most crackpot theory for the final books. The two things which I believe support my theory are:

1) all of the backstory on the Night's King

2) this vision that Daenerys has: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1821

Bran is a complete wildcard, and I have no clue how he will be brought back into the main storyline. My only theories for his storyline are:

1) Jojen will die (I don't believe the Jojen paste 'theory')

2) Benjen will show up at the cave, and his return will be the catalyst for whatever Bran is to do in the final books.

The other thing my theory doesn't explain is the stone dragon breathing shadow fire from Daenerys' house of the undying prophecy.

[The_Summer_Islander]

I have been skimming most of the Jon threads and this is the 1st time I have seen someone mention this. When I read of the assassination this was my thought. Now he has fullfilled his oath upon revival (I still think it will be Mel) Jon is free to claim Winterfell.

I have thought this as well. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Mel organised this with Bowen Marsh to free Jon of his oath without breaking the law. There's just something about Bowen's tearful reaction to stabbing Jon that made me go hmm.

[shavedquaithe]

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt."

Jon is put into a coma by the stabbings, and Marsh mistakes a comatose Jon for a dead one and moves him to the ice cells next to the smoked meats. The red star is Ser Partek whose sigil is a star, and is a follower of the Red God. Lord Snow will die in the ice cells, and a new Jon will be reborn.

The expectation-thwarting banality and humour of AA (Jon) awakening amidst salted and smoked meats seems to me to be perfectly compatible with the prophecy as well as something I can imagine GRRM taking great joy in writing.

[Nymeria_Stark]

I believe Jon is alive and will continue to distrust Melisandre. He (along with Ghost) will take a small scouting group north of the Wall to further investigate the Others, and in the process, learns something about the CotF. Ghost leads Jon in away from the scouting group, sensing Summer, and leads him to find Bran, and discovers that the CotF are still around. Then he, too, further learns about his warging abilities as well as a way to vanquish the Others once and for all.

[Lord_Tyrell]

I believe Jon is alive and will continue to distrust Melisandre. He (along with Ghost) will take a small scouting group north of the Wall to further investigate the Others, and in the process, learns something about the CotF. Ghost leads Jon in away from the scouting group, sensing Summer, and leads him to find Bran, and discovers that the CotF are still around. Then he, too, further learns about his warging abilities as well as a way to vanquish the Others once and for all.

Considering the Pink Letter, Jon isn't going anywhere. He knows the Others will come to him, to where I doubt he's going significantly north of the Wall again.

[MercyTheBlindUglyLittleCat]

I thinkt he resurrected Jon will be forced to head South by the end of the book, cause I expect the Wall will be lost to The Others by then. I can see him getting all the way back to Winterfell and regrouping with characters there. I think him and Mels will be uneasy allies, as she see's him as her new Stannis. What becomes of that King, I don't know.

[Walkingdude]

There was another person present when Neds sister died.Howland Reed.Wonder if his son will have something to say before this is done.

[Bob Sacamano]

Does anyone think that if Jon "dies", even for just a little bit, he will lose his connection with Ghost?

[Lord_Tyrell]

Does anyone think that if Jon "dies", even for just a little bit, he will lose his connection with Ghost?

I'd think it would only reinforce it if anything.