Small Observation/Question: Casting Shadows (Varys/Mel's Chats with Tyrion/Jon)

[gabrielle.]

Apologies if this has already been discussed. I could not find this topic via search.

Been re reading DWD and noticed (at the end of Jon VI) Mel's talk with Jon follows a similar theme to Varys conversation with Tyrion. What I found interesting is how it reflects the difference in Varys and Mel's worldviews.

Quotes from the books:

Varys/Tyrion's famous talk in COK (Tyrion II)

"Power resides where men believe it to be. No more and no less." (Varys)

"So power is a mummer's trick?"(Tyrion)

"A shadow on the wall," Varys murmurred, "yet shadows can kill. And oftentimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow."

Mel/Jon talk in DWD (Jon VI)

Mel states to Jon that power is "within you" and then goes on to hint at making a shadowbaby: "The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining, there is power. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows ... Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall."

.........................

• For Varys, an individual can achieve power through their own volition. They can, metaphorically speaking, cast a 'big' shadow. You just have to convince people of it. Power can be achieved via free will.
• Based on her conversation with Jon, Mel's idea power skews more deterministic. Individuals already come pre-packaged with their own 'shadow'. To access it, you just need to create a shadow baby. Her belief in determinism isn't surprising in light of her religion up to this point. However....

This has left me wondering about the following:

1. I've noticed that Mel seems to hold both (contradictory) views on power. There are instances (I can't locate the citations) were it's apparent that Mel's pulling a smoke & mirrors show to win people to her cause.
   
   Up to the point of her conversation with Jon, does she ever acknowledge her self-contradictory actions/attitudes in the book? If so, does she rationalize it in some fashion?

Just curious.

[Lummel]

...This has left me wondering about the following:

1. I've noticed that Mel seems to hold both (contradictory) views on power. There are instances (I can't locate the citations) were it's apparent that Mel's pulling a smoke & mirrors show to win people to her cause.

   Up to the point of her conversation with Jon, does she ever acknowledge her self-contradictory actions/attitudes in the book? If so, does she rationalize it in some fashion?

Just curious.

That's very interesting comparison, don't think I've seen that before. With regard to your last point she only has the one POV chapter so far and her conversation with Jon and with Davos have been separate, so there isn't anybody apart from her who could notice any contradiction nor has she any need to admit to having contradicted herself.

Doesn't she say to Davos that Stannis' fires are burning low suggesting that the shadow a person has is a finite resource, which reminds me of Maester Aemon saying that cold preserves while fire consumes.

[Errant Bard]

I don't think that there is any contradiction in Mel's approach of power: She does know that a lot of what she shows is tricks instead of real magic, but she also knows that she does real magic. Her "smoke and mirrors" only apply to magic tricks, her speech to Jon is not quite what varys said to Tyrion, but is about quite another set of powers, where "smoke and mirrors" are part of them. She is not saying Jon is the greatest best, most magical guy the gods ever pooped on the earth up to this point, she is saying he has power over men, and over history... and she has, too: she is standing next to Jon in that scene, her shadow is about as tall as his, on that wall.

Of course, some could also say that she is speaking of Jon's innate magical powers, and in that case there would still be no contradiction: she would be saying that his specialness is way above hers

Of course, her speech to Jon is most certainly another bit of politicking, done to butter the guy up, anyway, so I would not trust that too much.