Mr Smith Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 I was as shocked as Tyrion himself when we found Shae in Tywin's bed at the end of ASOS. When rereading a ACOK a couple of years later, a comment from Varys in Tyrion III chapter gave me serious pause. Varys takes Tyrion through a tunnel that connects the Hand's chambers to Chataya's, so he can visit Shae. When Tyrion asks him about it, this is the Spider's response: "The tunnel was dug for another King's Hand, whose honour would not allow him to enter such a house openly. Chataya has closely guarded the knowledge of its existence." Doesn't mean much on its own, but after finishing ASOS... Unnamed King's Hand = Tywin Lannister. Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 It cracks me up how desensitized we've become to the words 'whore' and 'bastard'. I wonder if I'd even blink if I heard those used in every day conversation. Back to the topic. Others have suggested this, and I believe it is true. It also makse more sense with Shae being in his chambers. Nice job on coming up with this on your own, though. I never gave it a second thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fallen Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 ` Definitely was Tywin. No one can convince me otherwise. I also picked up on it on a reread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrus Martell Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Good pick-up. Considering Varys mentions Chataya is the one who has closely guarded the secret, who are the King's Hands we know in the last twenty years? Lord Tywin LannisterLord Owen MerryweatherSer Jon ConningtonLord Qarlton ChestedLord Rossart I like to think it's Tywin rather than one of the other dead and obscure HoTKs as he's more textually relevant... and, of course, of that infamous scene in ASOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Good pick-up. Considering Varys mentions Chataya is the one who has closely guarded the secret, who are the King's Hands we know in the last twenty years? Lord Tywin Lannister Lord Owen Merryweather Ser Jon Connington Lord Qarlton Chested Lord Rossart I like to think it's Tywin rather than one of the other dead and obscure HoTKs as he's more textually relevant... and, of course, of that infamous scene in ASOS. I think Connington and Rossart can be safely dropped due to the duration of their handship, Chelsted possibly as well. You leave out Jon Arryn, however, who, as opposed to Tywin had a reputation of being honorable, if only by his house words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 i made the connection too but didn't really buy it , i'm of the opinion that it was constructed a very very long time ago ,going back more than a hundred years imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrus Martell Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 I think Connington and Rossart can be safely dropped due to the duration of their handship, Chelsted possibly as well. You leave out Jon Arryn, however, who, as opposed to Tywin had a reputation of being honorable, if only by his house words. That's a good point. Tywin was the only Hand of King Aerys who ruled for any considerable time before he resigned angrily. Owen Merryweather was fairly old and was exiled fairly quickly if I recall the text. We know Connington was interested in Rhaegar above all else, and Chelsted and Rossart were executed or killed very quickly. Jon Arryn could be a candidate for this vague mention of Varys. He might have been sexually frustrated with Lysa and his lack of connection with her. I've been playing the Game of Thrones video game recently (the RPG on PS3 and Xbox 360) and its background text implies Arryn wasn't too closed off from the possibilities of bedwarmers during Robert's Rebellion, so maybe he could be counted as a serious possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 We're supposed to infer it was Tywin who had the tunnel built. On the face of it Jon is just as good a candidate but there is little point to such a revelation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iona Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 I'm one of those people who are not fully convinced it was Tywin who had that tunnel built, mainly because Jon Arryn is another strong candidate as well. Varys has a history of throwing out these little bits of information that can be interpreted several ways, so I'm keeping my options open. One thing that bugs me too is that Tywin had Alayaya whipped. If he still wanted to visit Chataya's, I don't know if he'd have the owner's daughter abused... that's like a sure way of getting banned from all the joys they have to offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 I'm one of those people who are not fully convinced it was Tywin who had that tunnel built, mainly because Jon Arryn is another strong candidate as well. Varys has a history of throwing out these little bits of information that can be interpreted several ways, so I'm keeping my options open. One thing that bugs me too is that Tywin had Alayaya whipped. If he still wanted to visit Chataya's, I don't know if he'd have the owner's daughter abused... that's like a sure way of getting banned from all the joys they have to offer. fairly sure that was Cersei not Tywin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrus Martell Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 I'm one of those people who are not fully convinced it was Tywin who had that tunnel built, mainly because Jon Arryn is another strong candidate as well. Varys has a history of throwing out these little bits of information that can be interpreted several ways, so I'm keeping my options open. One thing that bugs me too is that Tywin had Alayaya whipped. If he still wanted to visit Chataya's, I don't know if he'd have the owner's daughter abused... that's like a sure way of getting banned from all the joys they have to offer. Wasn't it Cersei that had her whipped? Regardless, Tywin always put the reputation of House Lannister above all else. I could see him ordering this beating but still being hypocritical and visiting the venue for his private pleasures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 No, Tywin had her whipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the Road Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 I'm one of those people who are not fully convinced it was Tywin who had that tunnel built, mainly because Jon Arryn is another strong candidate as well. Varys has a history of throwing out these little bits of information that can be interpreted several ways, so I'm keeping my options open. One thing that bugs me too is that Tywin had Alayaya whipped. If he still wanted to visit Chataya's, I don't know if he'd have the owner's daughter abused... that's like a sure way of getting banned from all the joys they have to offer. I've always thought that it was Jon Arryn as well. Tywin was risking too much by whipping Alayaya. Jon Arryn we know was trapped in a loveless marriage, was a recent Hand of the King with a reputation for integrity, and may have also utilised the tunnels to carry out covert investigations into Robert's bastards. It's a real GRRM move to present the red herring that it was Tywin, when no one would ever suspect Jon Arryn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 No, Tywin had her whipped. Ah, yes, confused it with Cersei imprisoning her and having her beaten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrus Martell Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Okay, so if it was Jon Arryn, how could it come into play later and be worth the revelation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted January 4, 2014 Author Share Posted January 4, 2014 Hmmm I didn't think of Jon Arryn. Certainly fits into the whole "couldn't openly visit a brothel" angle. I wouldn't rule it out, given that we only have bits and pieces from characters of varying reliability about Jon Arryn himself. I maintain it is Tywin however, because (and I'm now reading between the lines here), its much more relevant to future events, and seems much more like Martin's style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 It's a real GRRM move to present the red herring that it was Tywin, when no one would ever suspect Jon Arryn. Is it? Jon isn't really important in the novels, in a character sense, while Tywin is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iona Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Is it? Jon isn't really important in the novels, in a character sense, while Tywin is. Crackpotting - a possible Arryn bastard by one of the lovely ladies at Chataya's? Hmm, how old is Alayaya again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Haha, I guess that could work. She was in her twenties I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Smith Posted January 4, 2014 Author Share Posted January 4, 2014 No good then, Jon was hand for 13 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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