House Parren = House Perryn?

[CaydenSelwyn]

First, hello! I'm new to these forums (though not to the series). I'm curious about two minor houses that have been mentioned in the novellas set before the events of ASOIAF. In 130 AC, House Perryn was mentioned as a Riverlands family that fought for the Blacks in the Dance of the Dragons. Their arms do not appear. Some 80 years later, a House Parren is mentioned by Dunk during the Ashford Tourney. They are supposedly from the Westerlands. Due to the similarity between these two names (in likely pronunciation, if not spelling), is it safe to consider them spelling variations on the same house, or safer to consider them as different houses? Thanks for any input!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Nothing is known. House Parren is already extinct, and no idea about House Perryn.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Perryn

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Parren

[JaimetheConciliator]

No offense intended whatsoever, but I have a feeling English isn't your first language.

See, already that sounds like I'm being a dick to you. Blame the internet.

As someone whose first language it is, I can guarantee that they are meant to be separate houses. I'm not sure how to explain but here's me taking a shot. When the 'y' is used in the last syllable, right before the final consonant, it's a "big deal". It doesn't happen often. If anything it probably shows up more often in English language fantasy novels than in common and colloquial English language in general. What I'm getting at is when 'perryn' was published, the spelling could not have been a mistake.

There's a tiny chance that perryn was mistranscribed as parren, but the chance is tiny because of the 'y' again, strangely. It has the effect of really highlighting the 'e' in the first syllable; just visually this effect takes place. With the 'y' there, you would never lazily see 'pear in' and sound it out as 'par in'. I can't offer a technical reason why. It just is, if you spoke the language from birth.

Hope I didn't come off condescending. I like your post because I like technical editing and keeping things as accurate as we can make them. I like the process of refinement. Cheers.

[Slender Aimry Hill]

Winds of Winter will largely consist of Samwell at the Citadel researching the ancient blood feud between the Parrens and the Perryns. You heard it here first

[JaimetheConciliator]

Winds of Winter will largely consist of Samwell at the Citadel researching the ancient blood feud between the Parrens and the Perryns. You heard it here first

Obsidian candles used Parren blood as a chemical binding agent. Holy shit!

[CaydenSelwyn]

JaimetheConciliator-- I'm not offended, though I do, indeed, speak English as my first language. I even have a masters in the teaching of the aforementioned language. So, I think you may have been confused by the key phrase: "In pronunciation, if not in spelling." In English, the words "Perry" (a pear-based alcohol) and "Parry" (to evade a blow) traditionally had somewhat different pronunciations. Now, however, the first vowel in each has shifted to the IPA epsilon...the sound in "bet", though slightly more open. In Mr. Martin's own work, "Arryn" and "Harrenhal" are pronounced the same (in the television series, at least). Hence, the idea that the difference is in the final vowel due in some sense to orthographic conventions does not hold, either. Spelling in English, even fantastical English, relies on a frozen orthography that does not necessarily represent actual pronunciation in the present day. My question, therefore, stemmed from the fact that a writer, even a careful writer such as Martin, could be writing and say "Yes, I have a House Parren...how did I spell that? Eh, probably Perryn." Editors would likely overlook it as being a new house.

I realize neither of these houses are important to the world of the novels. I am just remaking Westerosi coats of arms for my own enjoyment, and guessing at potential coats of arms for those houses whose arms aren't mentioned. If Perryn is a separate house, I imagine it with a pear on a green field. I was just curious as to whether or not Martin had ever cleared this up. Thanks for the responses!