Robert's Rebellion and the Victor's History

[Forever May]

What was Rickard's crime then?

Also the accusation is not baseless since Lyanna is missing.

Presumably the same as Brandon's crime. They were both there at court and it's safe to assume they both accused the King's son of something a little rash.

Lyanna being missing doesn't mean you can accuse the prince of kidnapping...

Why would we assume any of that? You're making it up to suit your argument. If Lyanna doesn't want marry Robert she can just refuse to say the vows. Eloping with an already married man is about the stupidest way to handle that situation.

I'm not making stuff up, I'm pulling pieces together. And how are you any better. How do you know Lyanna can refuse to wed Robert? In fact, assuming Rickard was indeed the kind of man who would ignore the wishes of his daughter and force her into marriage, running away and having a secret wedding with a man capable of protecting her might be the only way to get out of marrying Robert.

In any case, there is no reason to assume Rickard would have listened to Lyanna's wishes to not marry Robert and wed Rhaegar instead.

Where the hell are you getting Robert "recapturing" Lyanna from? He never captured her to begin with.

Gods, is it really that hard to understand what I mean? Obviously I was referring to Robert and Co in general. So Robert "capturing" Lyanna... gods damn it.

Also why is Rickard a confused idiot? He arranged a marriage for his daughter and responded to the King calling him to the capital that's it.

I thought he and Brandon went together on the first instance? Oh well. I might have missed that bit. If Aerys called Rickard there after, then yes, Rickard was probably not guilty of anything. Still, we don't know what Rickard said so we don't know he was innocent either. It's not impossible Aerys only decided to burn Rickard after he accused Rhaegar of the same things.

First off zero evidence that he "applauded" what Tywin did. Either way it's irrelevant since all of that happened after Lyanna's disappearance. All the Starks or Lyanna would have known about Robert at the time is that he's a womanizer which is commonplace.

You don't think it's probably that a man like Robert, capable of what we now learn he is, had an ill-favored character even before his worst crimes? What's more, being a womanizer is not so common as all maids must overlook it. You can't just disregard that. If Lyanna had word that Robert had already fathered bastards in the Vale, I don't see how you can dismiss the notion she found that distasteful.

Finally, you sound like you're trying to excuse what happened at the sack of King's Landing. There is no way I could ever forgive a person who raped a little girl to death. And then Tywin laid those bodies at Robert's feet as a token of fealty. And did Robert say anything? No. As Ned reflects, Ned called it murder, Robert called it war. Robert dismissed the crime. He is a total disgusting pig in every way. I don't see how anyone could come to another conclusion.

Where is your evidence that Lyanna and Robert's marriage was "forced" and not arranged?

Assuming Lyanna did run away from the wedding to be with Rhaeger, then it is safe to say she was being forced into marriage with Robert. How else could you explain the actions?

And do you actually understand what I mean by forcing sex on a woman? It sounds like you might be a bit too slow for all that. The marriage with Robert was still "arranged" as you put it, Lyanna just didn't want it, making it a forced arranged marriage. And do you understand that forcing yourself on a woman is rape, even if you are marrying her? It seems a lot of people don't get it. One foul forum member was dumb enough to suggest, "Arranged marriage is never rape." It is not always rape, if the woman consent, but if she doesn't consent and the consummation thus has to be forced, then it is always rape and totally inexcusable. To say, "Arranged marriage is never rape," is thus to say rape is sometimes okay, assuming you've got consent from daddy or the king or whoever. How hard is this to understand?

[TallTyrion]

Presumably the same as Brandon's crime. They were both there at court and it's safe to assume they both accused the King's son of something a little rash.

Lyanna being missing doesn't mean you can accuse the prince of kidnapping...

Brandon threatened the Prince and was arrested. Rickard was later called to court. Get the basic facts straight if you're going to try to make this argument.

Lyanna is missing that's the basis for Brandon's accusation therefore it is not "baseless"

I'm not making stuff up, I'm pulling pieces together. And how are you any better. How do you know Lyanna can refuse to wed Robert? In fact, assuming Rickard was indeed the kind of man who would ignore the wishes of his daughter and force her into marriage, running away and having a secret wedding with a man capable of protecting her might be the only way to get out of marrying Robert.

I know because any woman can refuse any wedding by refusing to say the vows. It says so in the books. Here's GRRM saying it if you don't believe me: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Some_Questions/

I thought he and Brandon went together on the first instance? Oh well. I might have missed that bit. If Aerys called Rickard there after, then yes, Rickard was probably not guilty of anything. Still, we don't know what Rickard said so we don't know he was innocent either. It's not impossible Aerys only decided to burn Rickard after he accused Rhaegar of the same things.

Kind of an important bit to miss. So yeah he wasn't guilty of anything.

You don't think it's probably that a man like Robert, capable of what we now learn he is, had an ill-favored character even before his worst crimes? What's more, being a womanizer is not so common as all maids must overlook it. You can't just disregard that. If Lyanna had word that Robert had already fathered bastards in the Vale, I don't see how you can dismiss the notion she found that distasteful.

It doesn't matter what I think he's capable of. I have way more information than Lyanna or Rickard did. You're whole argument is based on Rickard being in the wrong for arranging that marriage. At the time he arranged it the worst thing the Starks could have heard about Robert is that he has fathered bastards. Sorry but that isn't a big deal in this world.

Also Lyanna is ok with Rhaegar cheating on his wife, with her, but it's not ok for Robert to have bastards?

Finally, you sound like you're trying to excuse what happened at the sack of King's Landing. There is no way I could ever forgive a person who raped a little girl to death. And then Tywin laid those bodies at Robert's feet as a token of fealty. And did Robert say anything? No. As Ned reflects, Ned called it murder, Robert called it war. Robert dismissed the crime. He is a total disgusting pig in every way. I don't see how anyone could come to another conclusion.

That is complete bullshit. I'm not defending what Tywin did. You said Robert applauded the death of the Targaryen children. There's no evidence of that. Arguments require evidence. Also that is irrelevant since it happened after the marriage was arranged.

Assuming Lyanna did run away from the wedding to be with Rhaeger, then it is safe to say she was being forced into marriage with Robert. How else could you explain the actions?

It's possible that he took her against her will. Her being in love with Rhaegar and Rhaegar taking her by force are not mutually exclusive. Point is we don't know what happened and without evidence there's no reason to assume anything.

And do you actually understand what I mean by forcing sex on a woman? It sounds like you might be a bit too slow for all that. The marriage with Robert was still "arranged" as you put it, Lyanna just didn't want it, making it a forced arranged marriage. And do you understand that forcing yourself on a woman is rape, even if you are marrying her? It seems a lot of people don't get it. One foul forum member was dumb enough to suggest, "Arranged marriage is never rape." It is not always rape, if the woman consent, but if she doesn't consent and the consummation thus has to be forced, then it is always rape and totally inexcusable. To say, "Arranged marriage is never rape," is thus to say rape is sometimes okay, assuming you've got consent from daddy or the king or whoever. How hard is this to understand?

Resorting to name calling when your arguments fail, so mature. I never made any of those claims just like I never defended the sack of King's landing stop straw manning my position.

Also you don't know that Lyanna wouldn't have agreed to have sex with Robert on their wedding night. Arranging a marriage a woman doesn't want and that woman being raped on her wedding night are not the same thing. You're just assuming Robert is an evil monster and the Stark family is in favour of their daughter being raped.

[TallTyrion]

Gods, is it really that hard to understand what I mean? Obviously I was referring to Robert and Co in general. So Robert "capturing" Lyanna... gods damn it.

Rescue would be the word you're looking for.

[Washingmachine]

It's funny that the OP is stating that Aerys, who we know raped his wife to the point of her looking savaged by a wild animal, was punishing Rickard Stark for arranging a marriage. Also stop telling people their arguments are not based on the text while yours are clearly based on a series of assumptions as well as claims which are undeniably false.

[Gwynbleidd]

Robert didn't applaud anything when the children died. He didn't even looked at the corpses but in his mind it had to be done of some sort. It's not like he is yelling that "They are deadz yesshh!!" while clapping or some shit when the Lannisters presented the bodies with their crimson cloak.

[Forever May]

Lyanna is missing that's the basis for Brandon's accusation therefore it is not "baseless"

Lyanna being missing gives weight to accusing the prince of rape and kidnapping? You're just defending a brain dead argument.

I know because any woman can refuse any wedding by refusing to say the vows. It says so in the books. Here's GRRM saying it if you don't believe me: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Some_Questions/

Yes. And all knight swear to protect the weak. We have that on the record too. There of course aren't any instances whatsoever of forced marriage in the book or marriage consummation leading to rape. Of course, we have to ignore Sansa and Jeyne for that to be true, but I'm just saying how I am with you. That women can refuse their wedding vows and it happens all the time. Genius comeback.

Kind of an important bit to miss. So yeah he wasn't guilty of anything.

You're going around in circles. What Rickard and Brandon said to Aerys to make him want to kill them has not yet been revealed.

It doesn't matter what I think he's capable of. I have way more information than Lyanna or Rickard did. You're whole argument is based on Rickard being in the wrong for arranging that marriage. At the time he arranged it the worst thing the Starks could have heard about Robert is that he has fathered bastards. Sorry but that isn't a big deal in this world.

This is completely your opinion. If you think Robert was not disgusting and all woman have to overlook him for being a womanizer, that doesn't mean everyone has to or does think that. There are plenty of people in the Westeros world who found the likes of Robert distasteful. Two of those people were Stannis and Ned, his own brother and best friend. Another is Robb, Ned's son. Another is Sansa, who has not voiced much distaste of loose nature but is chaste nonetheless. Another is Jon, a Stark bastard. Another is Catelyn, a Stark wife who hated her husband for his bastard. Are you getting the picture? There are a lot of people in the Stark family that don't like womanizers. Is it that improbable that Lyanna was another? No. In fact, it is almost certain. You're just excusing Robert for your own preference. This says nothing about anyone but yourself.

Also Lyanna is ok with Rhaegar cheating on his wife, with her, but it's not ok for Robert to have bastards?

Seems that way. But we don't really know. If Rhaegar had put Elia aside and wanted a proper relationship with Lyanna, so what? There is no evidence Rhaegar was a womanizer and into whores. It's a completely different type of person.

That is complete bullshit. I'm not defending what Tywin did. You said Robert applauded the death of the Targaryen children. There's no evidence of that. Arguments require evidence. Also that is irrelevant since it happened after the marriage was arranged.

Applauded was a bad choice of words, perhaps. Might be I should have said sought or wanted or implied consent.

It's possible that he took her against her will.

Yes but I made a thread about if she wanted to be with him.

Resorting to name calling when your arguments fail, so mature. I never made any of those claims just like I never defended the sack of King's landing stop straw manning my position.

I am just getting tired of explaining to people how forcing yourself on a woman is rape. Stop asking the same block headed questions and I will stop calling you slow. All I am saying is if a girl says no then it means no. Stop trying to find a way around it. Rape is rape.

Also you don't know that Lyanna wouldn't have agreed to have sex with Robert on their wedding night. Arranging a marriage a woman doesn't want and that woman being raped on her wedding night are not the same thing. You're just assuming Robert is an evil monster and the Stark family is in favour of their daughter being raped.

If a maid doesn't want the wedding then it's unlikely she wants the cock... sorry to surprise you like that! I know it must be shocking.

[Forever May]

It's funny that the OP is stating that Aerys, who we know raped his wife to the point of her looking savaged by a wild animal, was punishing Rickard Stark for arranging a marriage. Also stop telling people their arguments are not based on the text while yours are clearly based on a series of assumptions as well as claims which are undeniably false.

No I didn't actually say that. I am saying Aerys punished the Starks for accusing his son of crimes he did not commit. There's a big difference.

[Forever May]

Robert didn't applaud anything when the children died. He didn't even looked at the corpses but in his mind it had to be done of some sort. It's not like he is yelling that "They are deadz yesshh!!" while clapping or some shit when the Lannisters presented the bodies with their crimson cloak.

As I said, bad choice of words. And as Robert proved when Dany got pregnant, "It has to be done... many times." He is a baby slayer, or would be. And he forgave Tywin and Gregor for it. There is no honor in such a man.

[TallTyrion]

No I didn't actually say that. I am saying Aerys punished the Starks for accusing his son of crimes he did not commit. There's a big difference.

One Stark accused his son of a crime. He killed another and called for the death of a third.

[Forever May]

What's your point? Honestly, you pull me up on every grammatical error. It is dumb.

[TallTyrion]

This is completely your opinion. If you think Robert was not disgusting and all woman have to overlook him for being a womanizer, that doesn't mean everyone has to or does think that. There are plenty of people in the Westeros world who found the likes of Robert distasteful. Two of those people were Stannis and Ned, his own brother and best friend. Another is Robb, Ned's son. Another is Sansa, who has not voiced much distaste of loose nature but is chaste nonetheless. Another is Jon, a Stark bastard. Another is Catelyn, a Stark wife who hated her husband for his bastard. Are you getting the picture? There are a lot of people in the Stark family that don't like womanizers. Is it that improbable that Lyanna was another? No. In fact, it is almost certain. You're just excusing Robert for your own preference. This says nothing about anyone but yourself.

At the time Lyanna was betrothed to Brandon Ned loved Robert like a brother and Stannis worshiped him. Ned was also living with him and is in a better place to judge his character than Lyanna or Rickard.

As for the rest of your post, it doesn't even warrant a response. You have no argument here all you have been able to do is name call and strawman other people's responses into rape defences.

[TallTyrion]

What's your point? Honestly, you pull me up on every grammatical error. It is dumb.

Saying "The Starks" when it's in fact one Stark is a factual error not a grammatical one.

There's not a single bit of evidence that Rickard threatened the king or the Prince.

[Forever May]

At the time Lyanna was betrothed to Brandon Ned loved Robert like a brother and Stannis worshiped him. Ned was also living with him and is in a better place to judge his character than Lyanna or Rickard.

As for the rest of your post it doesn't even warrant a response. You have no argument here all you have been able to do is name call and strawman other people's responses into rape defences.

So you are sticking with you whole, "It isn't rape if I gave her a wedding ring," thing? I didn't want the thread to be about that at all, but people like you labeling my disgust to rape advocacy as "straw man" warrants the thrashing you got. Most of you have just made stuff up about what I said, such as claiming I think all arranged marriage is rape. It was total rubbish, I never said that. I said holding a girl down and fucking her is rape, and it is, regardless of who said you could do it or what you gave her for it. And the responses I got to this were either distortions or diversions, all to take attention away from the fact I am right. I don't know why people are defending such practice. I can only assume it is because they find such fantasy arousing or such thing, that women can be herded as such without consequence or scrutiny. It seems they were wrong...

Both Ned and Stannis have only ever married and loved one woman. To say being a womanizer is so common and all women must bow before a womanizer husband is complete rubbish by looking at the characters I mentioned.

[Forever May]

Saying "The Starks" when it's in fact one Stark is a factual error not a grammatical one.

There's not a single bit of evidence that Rickard threatened the king or the Prince.

Rickard had to be burned for something...

And my error was imprudence. I don't care for that on a damn net forum. You're just being pedantic. It is obvious what I meant, yet you hunker down on an error for the core of your response, amongst dismissals of what forced marriage really is. Not a good reply...

[Forever May]

I have to go brush my hair. See you later, Tall Tyrion.

[TallTyrion]

So you are sticking with you whole, "It isn't rape if I gave her a wedding ring," thing? I didn't want the thread to be about that at all, but people like you labeling my disgust to rape advocacy as "straw man" warrants the thrashing you got. Most of you have just made stuff up about what I said, such as claiming I think all arranged marriage is rape. It was total rubbish, I never said that. I said holding a girl down and fucking her is rape, and it is, regardless of who said you could do it or what you gave her for it. And the responses I got to this were either distortions or diversions, all to take attention away from the fact I am right. I don't know why people are defending such practice. I can only assume it is because they find such fantasy arousing or such thing, that women can be herded as such without consequence or scrutiny. It seems they were wrong...

Both Ned and Stannis have only ever married and loved one woman. To say being a womanizer is so common and all women must bow before a womanizer husband is complete rubbish by looking at the characters I mentioned.

Provide a single quote of me saying anything like that. Better yet report it to the mods. What you're claiming I'm doing is a violation of forum policy. So let's find out if anyone aside from you would think that anything I have written could be consider advocating rape.

I haven't even discussed rape in my posts just pointed out your poor arguments and factual inaccuracies.

We are talking about arranged marriages in the context of books that take place in a medieval world. You claimed that the Starks deserve to be punished because they were going to marry their daughter to Robert, whose only sin at the time was that he had bastard. Sorry but you can't support that argument in the context of the booksl.

If your only position is that arranged marriage is wrong, well guess what everyone on this board agrees with that when it comes to the real world but the judgements made about characters in the series have to be taken in context with the world GRRM has created.

Rickard had to be burned for something...

And my error was imprudence. I don't care for that on a damn net forum. You're just being pedantic. It is obvious what I meant, yet you hunker down on an error for the core of your response, amongst dismissals of what forced marriage really is. Not a good reply...

He was burned because Aerys is a mad man. You know the "Mad King" I think you're missing some serious themes of the books. Aerys also demanded Ned's death by the way.... what has his crime?

[Forever May]

Provide a single quote of me saying anything like that. Better yet report it to the mods. What you're claiming I'm doing is a violation of forum policy. So let's find out if anyone aside from you would think that anything I have written could be consider advocating rape.

It wasn't really you. It was some of the previous posters. And you carried on their argument after they left, making me reiterate the same things. Actually, I am sorry for being a bit harsh, but I am genuinely suspicious of why you are hounding me about things I have already stated very clearly.

Put simply, one of the previous members did state, "Arranged marriage is never rape." Which is literally advocating of rape. The obvious implication is, forced sex on the consummation of an arranged marriage does not constitute rape due to the context. That is a lie and why I am so hostile.

Under such context, your carrying on the defense of the arranged marriage between Lyanna and Robert under my assumption that Lyanna did not want such marriage, yes you appear to be cut from the same stone as previous posters. Correct me if I am wrong.

We are talking about arranged marriages in the context of books that take place in a medieval world. You claimed that the Starks deserve to be punished because they were going to marry their daughter to Robert, whose only sin at the time was that he had bastard. Sorry but you can't support that argument in the context of the booksl.

That isn't what I am saying. Honestly, where do you get these ideas? I am saying that Brandon may have committed treason by accusing Rhaegar of crimes he did not commit, the punishment of which is the death penalty. I also believe Rickard may have reiterated his son's stance before Aerys, thus also committing treason, and have been rightly executed for it under law. Although the method of execution was over the top, as you say Aerys was a little mad.

What you are referring to "deserves" was in regards to the reader's perspective. I did say in the OP something along those lines, but did not suggest burning was appropriate. What I meant is, if Rickard and Brandon were forcing Lyanna into a marriage she didn't want and both Rickard and Brandon committed treason by falsely accusing Rhaegar of kidnapping and even rape, then the entire blunder for starting the war lies on those two. How is any of this actually wrong?

Can you state why Brandon committing treason, assuming he did, should be excusable? No, you can't.

Can you explain why accusing Rhaegar of kidnapping was an intelligent thing to do? No, you can't.

What exactly is your argument? Honestly. If you simply think that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna, then we've nothing more to discuss. I am talking only of the implications of that not being true.

If your only position is that arranged marriage is wrong, well guess what everyone on this board agrees with that when it comes to the real world but the judgements made about characters in the series have to be taken in context with the world GRRM has created.

I have never even remotely suggested that arranged marriage is wrong. Not at all. I said rape is wrong, and you confuse rape with arranged marriage for some reason. And in GRRM's world, rape is distasteful, even of your bride, so what are you talking about?

He was burned because Aerys is a mad man. You know the "Mad King" I think you're missing some serious themes of the books. Aerys also demanded Ned's death by the way.... what has his crime?

That is a good question, what was Ned's crime and why did Aerys want him dead? But frankly, it has absolutely nothing to do with what I am saying. You're attacking Aerys and ignoring Brandon committing treason and Lyanna's will for choosing her own lover.

Honestly, come back with some answers to my actual points instead of attacking Aerys or distorting what I said about how Robert forcing a marriage on Lyanna would be rape... or don't come back at all.

[Forever May]

Updated OP

[Cat of the Rivers]

Put simply, one of the previous members did state, "Arranged marriage is never rape." Which is literally advocating of rape. The obvious implication is, forced sex on the consummation of an arranged marriage does not constitute rape due to the context. That is a lie and why I am so hostile.

Arranged marriage is not rape no matter how much you insist it is.

[TallTyrion]

It wasn't really you. It was some of the previous posters. And you carried on their argument after they left, making me reiterate the same things. Actually, I am sorry for being a bit harsh, but I am genuinely suspicious of why you are hounding me about things I have already stated very clearly.

Put simply, one of the previous members did state, "Arranged marriage is never rape." Which is literally advocating of rape. The obvious implication is, forced sex on the consummation of an arranged marriage does not constitute rape due to the context. That is a lie and why I am so hostile.

Yeah no one said that. You're making that up. So you misunderstand another poster and then claim that I'm responsible for carrying on an argument that was never put forth to begin with.

I'm responding to your post because the argument you put forward have no factual basis.

Under such context, your carrying on the defense of the arranged marriage between Lyanna and Robert under my assumption that Lyanna did not want such marriage, yes you appear to be cut from the same stone as previous posters. Correct me if I am wrong.

Well you are wrong. Since one, no one made that argument to begin with. And two, you don't know that Robert would have raped Lyanna you are assuming he would have I don't share that assumption. It's possible that Lyanna would have been smitten by Robert on their wedding day and consented to have sex with him.

That isn't what I am saying. Honestly, where do you get these ideas? I am saying that Brandon may have committed treason by accusing Rhaegar of crimes he did not commit, the punishment of which is the death penalty. I also believe Rickard may have reiterated his son's stance before Aerys, thus also committing treason, and have been rightly executed for it under law. Although the method of execution was over the top, as you say Aerys was a little mad.

What you are referring to "deserves" was in regards to the reader's perspective. I did say in the OP something along those lines, but did not suggest burning was appropriate. What I meant is, if Rickard and Brandon were forcing Lyanna into a marriage she didn't want and both Rickard and Brandon committed treason by falsely accusing Rhaegar of kidnapping and even rape, then the entire blunder for starting the war lies on those two. How is any of this actually wrong?

He wasn't a "little mad" he was batshit crazy.

Aerys had no idea what actually happened but he took it onto himself to kill an entire family because someone threatened his son. You can't claim that Aerys carried out these punishments under the law either because he denied them their right to a trial.

You stated that Aerys was in the right to punish the Starks but he took it to far. There is zero evidence that Rickard or Ned committed treason. You are assuming he did to continue your unsupportable position that the Starks deserve to be punished.

The only argument you can make is that Brandon is a traitor. But even if he is, the King isn't allowed to just execute any noble he wants without a trial. Even if the punishment for Treason is death, which doesn't have to be the punishment by the way, no one at court or anywhere else in the Kingdom would agree that killing the son of your Warden of the North is a good idea.

What you are referring to "deserves" was in regards to the reader's perspective. I did say in the OP something along those lines, but did not suggest burning was appropriate. What I meant is, if Rickard and Brandon were forcing Lyanna into a marriage she didn't want and both Rickard and Brandon committed treason by falsely accusing Rhaegar of kidnapping and even rape, then the entire blunder for starting the war lies on those two. How is any of this actually wrong?

Can you state why Brandon committing treason, assuming he did, should be excusable? No, you can't.

Can you explain why accusing Rhaegar of kidnapping was an intelligent thing to do? No, you can't.

You have provided no evidence that Rickard or Brandon knew that Lyanna didn't want to marry Robert. And once again there is zero evidence that Rickard or Ned did anything Treasonous.

I never said Brandon accusing Rhaegar was intelligent.

I also said in my opening post that Brandon could be considered guilty of treason. So what are you talking about?

I have never even remotely suggested that arranged marriage is wrong. Not at all. I said rape is wrong, and you confuse rape with arranged marriage for some reason. And in GRRM's world, rape is distasteful, even of your bride, so what are you talking about?

Sorry I should have said forced marriage not arranged.

That is a good question, what was Ned's crime and why did Aerys want him dead? But frankly, it has absolutely nothing to do with what I am saying. You're attacking Aerys and ignoring Brandon committing treason and Lyanna's will for choosing her own lover.

Neither Ned nor Rickard are guilt of any crimes. Your utter failure to understand the nature of the Mad King doesn't mean Ned and Rickard are guilty of anything.

Honestly, come back with some answers to my actual points instead of attacking Aerys or distorting what I said about how Robert forcing a marriage on Lyanna would be rape... or don't come back at all.

You of all people are not in a position to demand better responses on the this board. You're entire argument has been based on misrepresentation and assumptions based on now evidence.

I've spent enough time trying to educate you on the basic facts of this story and what an argument should consist of. You have failed to understand either