Forever May Posted November 17, 2014 Author Share Posted November 17, 2014 You're confusing semantics with facts. I'm honing in on your factual errors not your grammar. Your facts consist of things like, "Being a womanizer doesn't put women off men." Dream on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 He wasn't killed for nothing. What's your evidence he was killed for nothing? I would recommend you do a quick google search on circular reasoning. He was killed because the king was a Mad Man. There is loads of evidence that Aerys was an unstable psycho not a rational actor. By your logic Ned is guilty of something as well, what is his crime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 Jaime's narrative pretty much puts a lid on Rickard actually doing anything meriting an execution. One can also take the executions of the other fathers as a sign that Aerys was just being a crazy asshole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 Your facts consist of things like, "Being a womanizer doesn't put women off men." Dream on! I said being a womanizer isn't considered a big deal in Westeros. If you're a father arranging a marriage for your daughter, the suitor having a bastard is not sufficient reason to disqualify him. If you're daughter is so put off by that fact the she refuses the marriage that is a separate issue. There's no evidence that Lyanna ever brought that up to Rickard or was even bothered by that fact. By the way, what is wrong with Robert having a bastard? He's a single man unlike the noble Rhaegar who abandoned his sick wife to run off with a teenage girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever May Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share Posted November 18, 2014 I said being a womanizer isn't considered a big deal in Westeros. All evidence to the contrary. I gave examples, you ignored them. Stannis wants to outlaw brothels. Jon gets suicidal for sleeping with a girl. Ned has most likely only been with Catelyn his entire life. The one thing Catelyn can't forgive is Ned's bastard. Simple truth is Robert was a lout and womanizer. The stories of him as a lad involve fathering bastards and unruly behavior such as starting food fights. There's plenty of reason a maiden from a strict family such as the Starks would be put off. But ignoring the facts seems to be a common thread for you... Actually, your entire counter-argument thusfar has been unsubstantiated, pure speculation. At least the facts work in favor of my theory, but your hypothesis is based solely on the heated comments of a an unreliable drunk. There’s no evidence whatsoever that Brandon believed Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna outside of Robert’s accusations, which are almost certainly driven by jealousy for a start and secondly are undermined by his mad hatred for Targaryens which manifests itself even in the murder of unborn children. Let’s go over what Brandon did know: Brandon knew Lyanna was willful. Brandon knew Rhaegar was courting Lyanna with romantic gestures. Brandon knew Lyanna went missing and had a notion that she was with Rhaegar. And from this evidence, it is fair to surmise Brandon believes Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna? No, it isn’t. Yet this is what you claim, an entirely unsubstantiated hypothesis. Since we know Lyanna went with Rhaegar by choice, or at least that is what the evidence suggests (both Rhaegar having been courting Lyanna and where Ned tells Arya it was the wolf blood, i.e. willful nature, that led Lyanna to her demise), it is likely Brandon encountered no evidence that would lead him to believe Lyanna was kidnapped. Simply, if she wasn’t kidnapped, there would be no evidence suggesting she was. Yet still Brandon found it in him to go south and demand the return of his sister. Why? There are multiple possible reasons why and this is where the speculation does begin. However, your notion Brandon claimed before Aerys that the crown prince Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna hinges on a very flimsy and rather ridiculous supposition: that Brandon was stupid enough to believe Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna even though nothing would have really suggested it, as we’ve neither seen anything to suggest it, nor does the things Brandon knew suggest it, and that he was even stupider to lay those claims before the King. Not likely. No one is that stupid, even in your fantasy world. So assuming Brandon is not a complete idiot who was dumb enough to wrongly believe his sister had been kidnapped and then even dumber to go to the King with these allegations, one thing can be surmised: that Brandon believed Lyanna should not be with Rhaegar, despite she was with him by choice. That is the conclusion the evidence suggests. It’s hard to say exactly why Brandon believed this. It could be because Lyanna was engaged to Robert and that House Stark took the notion of their daughter instead becoming a minor wife as an insult, as it is an essentially fruitless marriage politics-wise and places Lyanna in an almost paramour-like position. The other option is the SOUTHRON AMBITIONS theory. If that theory is true, then Lyanna was essentially ruining it both by uniting with House Targaryen and also by giving herself as a hostage should the Rebellion begin. If this is true and Brandon knew about Rickard’s plot, he may have been trying to get Lyanna back frankly so they could then proceed to rebel against the Iron Throne. Indeed, Lyanna may also have been privy to Rickard’s plot and been intentionally trying to ruin it, by trying to bring peace and unity and conspiring with Rhaegar to whatever other ends. The SOUTHRON AMBITIONS theory also goes some way towards explaining why Aerys acted the way he did, that he was dealing with treason. Moreover, if that theory is correct, then it further supports the notion that Lyanna might have been forcefully wed to Robert for the sake of sealing an alliance that, in the eyes of Rickard, might have been, “More important than her own selfish desires.” Indeed, the idea that Brandon almost certainly knew Lyanna was with Rhaegar by choice yet still demanded her return seems to suggest the men of their House cared little for Lyanna’s personal preferences. This is what the evidence suggests. At no point does the evidence suggest Brandon and Rickard after him believed Lyanna was with Rhaegar against her will. There is also no reason to believe Brandon could even have surmised that. Something else was clearly going on. Not once does Ned ever think ill of Rhaegar in his chapters, nor speak ill of him, not think of rape or kidnapping. And what Ned does say to Arya suggests he is well aware that Lyanna was never abused by Rhaegar and he blames Lyanna’s own nature for her demise. So why don’t you stop accusing me of making things up and try to back up some of the things you say for once. I’ve provided ample evidence to make my points, but thusfar your speculation on what Brandon was doing and what he might have thought, or your comments about Aerys, have absolutely nothing behind them. So take a look in the damn mirror! What you are doing is repeating the history implied by the text but never specifically confirmed or clarified. When we are told of the Rebellion, Ned gives us the basic true facts which are a mere skeleton of what happens, and then Robert colors that skeleton in with heated emotional comments that suggest bias, mental instability, jealousy, irrational rage, you name it. Martin is doing this on purpose, trying to give us a false impression, and you have taken the bait, hook, line and sinker. The reality is, once you look at the facts of what can actually be relied upon, very different. Even the manner of execution is interesting. If Rickard was executed for treason, it makes sense that he danced with the Dragon and got burned. If Brandon was executed for things he said, strangling is equally as rational. (Not saying I agree with it, just that it makes sense). So stop accusing me of making things up and try and back up at least a single thing you have claimed. You can't. Martin didn't put any evidence in the text to support anything Robert said because everything Robert has convinced himself of never happened. He is a jealous idiot who couldn't handle it when the girl he fancied ran off with someone else. Try harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 All evidence to the contrary. I gave examples, you ignored them. Stannis wants to outlaw brothels. Jon gets suicidal for sleeping with a girl. Ned has most likely only been with Catelyn his entire life. The one thing Catelyn can't forgive is Ned's bastard. Simple truth is Robert was a lout and womanizer. The stories of him as a lad involve fathering bastards and unruly behavior such as starting food fights. There's plenty of reason a maiden from a strict family such as the Starks would be put off. But ignoring the facts seems to be a common thread for you... Stannis gets laughed out of the room when he suggested that and Jon has sworn a vow of celibacy. Try harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever May Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share Posted November 18, 2014 So you're not going to try backing up your claim that Brandon believed Lyanna had been kidnapped? Gods but you are a hypocrite... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King in Black Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Bored. This is HS = HR all over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King in Black Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Bored. This is HS = HR all over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 So you're not going to try backing up your claim that Brandon believed Lyanna had been kidnapped? Gods but you are a hypocrite... Right, change the subject when your utterly ridiculous example gets torn to shreds. I'm not going to bother responding to that argument you just posted because all of those points have been addressed three times over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 So you're not going to try backing up your claim that Brandon believed Lyanna had been kidnapped? Gods but you are a hypocrite... Wait let me get this straight. You believe that Brandon knew Lyanna went willingly, and still went to court to threaten the prince and accuse him of kidnapping? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever May Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share Posted November 18, 2014 Right, change the subject when your utterly ridiculous example gets torn to shreds. I'm not going to bother responding to that argument you just posted because all of those points have been addressed three times over. My utterly ridiculous example? You're unbelievable. I am saying there are plenty of characters in the book, many of the close to Robert and even closer to Lyanna, who find Robert's behavior distasteful, from his wife to his brother to his best friend. This is a fact. You're ignoring the fact just to further your own interest. And no, you never backed up anything you surmised about Brandon. Ever. You, along with other forum members, merely lied or distorted what I said and refused to reply to the facts or serious questions I did list whilst purporting your own baseless theory of what Brandon did... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever May Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share Posted November 18, 2014 Wait let me get this straight. You believe that Brandon knew Lyanna went willingly, and still went to court to threaten the prince and accuse him of kidnapping? Is there any evidence whatsoever to suggest otherwise? No. Read my damn above post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 My utterly ridiculous example? You're unbelievable. I am saying there are plenty of characters in the book, many of the close to Robert and even closer to Lyanna, who find Robert's behavior distasteful, from his wife to his brother to his best friend. This is a fact. You're ignoring the fact just to further your own interest. And no, you never backed up anything you surmised about Brandon. Ever. You, along with other forum members, merely lied or distorted what I said and refused to reply to the facts or serious questions I did list whilst purporting your own baseless theory of what Brandon did... You said Stannis and Jon are characters that show that womanizing is frowned upon in Westeros. Using those two as an example of the general opinion on womanizing is utterly ridiculous. One is ridiculed for that opinion the other is sworn to celabcy. You are aware that at the time of Robert's betrothal to Lyanna Ned loved him like a brother right? Ned and Stannis' negative thoughts about Robert don't occur till after he has been king for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever May Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share Posted November 18, 2014 Given Cersei turned against Robert in some part for his womanizing and Robert ended up dying at the hands of his wife he disgusted, what you are saying is completely ridiculous. Get it through your head, some women don't like womanizers. It's true in real life. It's true in the books. The only place it isn't true is in your head. Not my fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King in Black Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Given Cersei turned against Robert in some part for his womanizing and Robert ended up dying at the hands of his wife he disgusted, what you are saying is completely ridiculous. Get it through your head, some women don't like womanizers. It's true in real life. It's true in the books. The only place it isn't true is in your head. Not my fault.Try and decide what you're talking about. Whatever you're posting is completely disjointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Given Cersei turned against Robert in some part for his womanizing and Robert ended up dying at the hands of his wife he disgusted, what you are saying is completely ridiculous. Get it through your head, some women don't like womanizers. It's true in real life. It's true in the books. The only place it isn't true is in your head. Not my fault. I said Rickard wouldn't have cared not Lyanna. Go read my post again. I specifically said a father wouldn't have a problem with it but if it is a big enough deal for the daughter that is a different matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever May Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share Posted November 18, 2014 Whatever. Are you going to provide any evidence that Brandon might not have known Lyanna went with Rhaegar by free will, or just stick to throwing ridiculous claims around without backing them up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTyrion Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Given Cersei turned against Robert in some part for his womanizing and Robert ended up dying at the hands of his wife he disgusted, what you are saying is completely ridiculous. Get it through your head, some women don't like womanizers. It's true in real life. It's true in the books. The only place it isn't true is in your head. Not my fault. Yeah she's mad because he is cheating on her. Robert was a single man when he fathered Mya Stone. Whatever. Are you going to provide any evidence that Brandon might not have known Lyanna went with Rhaegar by free will, or just stick to throwing ridiculous claims around without backing them up? Brandon believing that Rhaegar kidnapped his sister is the agreed upon version of history both in the books and on this forum. His actions make the most sense if he believes his sister was kidnapped. You're the one purposing the alternate theory so the burden of proof is on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malik Ambar Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 So Brandon was an idiot who committed treason as an emotional response to ignorance... Honestly, that is entirely possible and has little to do with my main point anyway. That's a lot of speculation and assuming people would handle things "just so" in the way you see fit...1. Yes2. You do realise the irony of that response, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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