"The Winged Wolf" A Bran Stark Re-read Project - Part 1: AGOT

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

2. I want to talk about the idea of katabasis. In Greek katabasis means "to go down" and is most often used in literature as a descent into the underworld--Odysseus, Aeneas, Orpheus, ect ect ect. Bran is now living amongst the dead and then reemerges to start a new life away from the home and and life he once knew. This is a rebirth. He is born again as not Bran Stark that we knew in AGOT but as something more, Bran the Winged Wolf, really. His descent into the underworld was out of necessity, just like Odysseus's. Odysseus and Aeneas leave with knowledge of what is to come, Bran leaves the crypts and then WF as a new person. Like I said above, he might not be sure of who that person is because he now has so many different facets, but it's someone new.

WOW!

That is an amazing connection! Going down into the darkness of the earth in order to regrow the "tree" (House Stark, the weirwood, Winterfell even) from the roots.

It's notable too that the older members of House Stark who are less connected to its history and more to Westeros's current concept of honor and culture (Robb, Ned, Catelyn, and even Sansa who is a half-dead, in a sense, possibly with Jon to join them) are dead and could represent the higher branches of the "tree", while the younger members whose direwolves have darker fur (and whose storylines are darker in general) are seemingly destined to live. "The chopping of the tree, and the regrowing from the roots."

[DarkSister1001]

A Clash of Kings: Bran VII

It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either

Very nicely done!

The reason why this is so dangerous is also rooted in Bran's disability: In the last part of the quote it becomes clear that Bran resents his current state. 'Bran the boy' is a more neutral statement, but 'Bran the broken' includes all the aspects of his disability: He cannot walk, constantly needs the help of other people. He cannot fulfill his dream to become a knight and is helpless in his own body, and he is constantly reminded of that fact. And although Bran enjoys being in Summer's body, being swift and strong, 'Bran the beastling' focuses on the negative aspects.

Another aspect of his emerging abilities are the circumstances surrounding it. It is of course possible that Bran just happened to learn to control his skinchanging ability while they are hiding in the crypts and Winterfell is destroyed. But it is likely that these circumstances have something to do with this progression.

I lean towards this reasoning. In Summer he's whole, strong and independent. Not only can he reach Summer more easily, he could also reach Jon & Ghost. I think it's a trifecta...once again he's evading death and each time he does his abilities gain strength, he's had several days of solid, uninterrupted practice and thirdly he's surrounding by the shades of his ancestors, some of which were wargs. I think the true testament to the improvement is the double vision. He was able to see through human and wolf eyes simultaneously. More time passed between his fall and the Sack then has passed from the Sack to this scene and his powers have grown exponentially. That's something for a boy who didn't understand having a 3rd eye a few chapters ago.

I do not understand why Bran think's he'd be laid to rest in the crypts. He tells us earlier that only the Kings and Lords were laid to rest there. His father bucked the system when he loved his siblings so much that he decided to have their tombs put there (though some of us R+L=J peeps have a different reasoning). At the time of this chapter Bran is Robb's heir, not Lord or King, so why would he think he'd be entombed there?

This quote is in contrast to the prayer to R'hllor: 'The night is dark and full of terrors.' For Bran this is not the case. He does not necessarily like it, as seen in the first sentence of the quote, but he feels secure. For him the darkness of the crypts is not full of terrors, it helps him to hide from terrors, the soldiers that sacked Winterfell, and is encouraged by the statues of his ancestors he knows are there. The place may be dark, but he still knows it, and thus the fear that can be caused by the dark, the lack of information it brings, does not apply here. In contrast to that is the world above, where an uncertain future awaits him. Here continue the differences we noticed in past chapters between the religion of R'hllor and their teachings and the stance of the religion of the old gods.

That's brilliant!

That there is something magical occurring is also suggested by an observation of Bran/Summer in the beginning of the chapter:

The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame.

Any thoughts or ideas out there as to why Summer saw a Dragon? I could understand Ghost/Jon seeing it, but I can't seem to grasp a Bran/Summer connection unless maybe a vision of the future?

I'd like to add...

"We made enough noise to wake a dragon".

That's a curious quote from Osha. Especially since Summer just described seeing a dragon. I would find it more fitting for a wilding to say "wake the dead".

When he approached the carcass his brother snapped at him and laid back his ears, and he cuffed him with a forepaw and bit his leg. They fought admist the grass and dirt and falling ashes beside the dead horse, until his brother rolled on his back in submission, tail tucked low. One more bite at his upturned throat; then he fed, and let his brother feed, and licked the blood off his black fur.

With Shaggy and Rickon consistently sharing personalities and characteristics I find this passage to be foreshadowing a power struggle between Bran and Rickon.

As they set off, he turned to give his father one last look, and it seemed to Bran that there was a sadness in Lord Eddard's eyes, as if he did not want them to go. We have to, he thought. It's time.

Bran has one last look at his father's likeness and then ends up bidding a final, mortal farewell to Maester Luwin, his surrogate father. :( I cried, like a bitch.

The door to the crypts was made of Ironwood...

See Bran I analysis

"We should go," said Jojen. "So much death will bring other wolves besides Summer and Shaggydog, and not all on four feet."

Why should this scare them? Bran & Rickon are Robb's heirs and thought to be dead. If two-legged wolves = Starks (and by extension their allies) why wouldn't they wait around for them? Obviously Bran's journey is North but I never understood why these word's from Jojen went unchallenged.

[Illuminated by Fire]

Excellent job Illuminated by Fire! Can't believe we are half way done with the re-read already :)

Thank you! We are actually more than half way done, since aSoS and aDwD have less chapters, four and five respectively counting the prologue and Sam's chapter, we are almost done with two thirds of it.

Agreed. It's also very "Bran the Boy," a stubborn boy who wants his own way and doesn't want to go back to his reality.

Absolutely, and it makes the whole thing much more dangerous. It is not only difficult to control but it is tempting to just go with the flow of Summer's thoughts and losing himself, which makes it even more difficult.

Yes and it goes back to some questions I raised last week: when did the Starks realize they had this ability? Was it a natural gift or given to them? Did the First Men have it prior to crossing the Narrow Sea?

Also, there is some repetitive history going on here, now that we have the World Book. This is not the first time the Boltons have gone against WF and the rivalry between the two families was once strong. The Boltons also resented, apparently, the Stark ability to skinchange, something that must have been known, because as I understand it, the Boltons wearing the skins of their fallen enemies was trying to match the Stark ability to *actually* wear other skins.

I think that it has something to do with the CotF. I got the impression from Luwin's story that the war between the First Men and the CotF was also a conflict of superior number and strength on the one side and mythical abilities on the other. But I am far from certain in this matter. Regarding the Boltons: It is truly astounding to what lengths people can go. Of course it could be the case that the Boltons had their own magical knowledge which required this, but I would not put it past them that they only did it because they felt slighted and just had a hope that they would gain powers from that.

We've been keeping careful track in some chapter of the Gargoyles and their relationship to Bran. In this chapter, not only are they broken, but the gargoyles fell in the same spot as Bran fell back in Bran II. The gargoyles are so shattered that Bran cannot tell which one it is. This is a lot like Bran: he has so many facets now, Bran the Boy, Bran the Prince, Bran the Broken, Bran The Wolf, Bran the Winged Wolf that he's not sure who he is either. He just know that he's not dead.

Very good observation. We have seen Bran develop and dealing with these issues through the first two books, and instead of the facets merging they become more and more because the issues bevome more and more. The struggle for Bran to know who he is and who he wants to be is not necessarily less than for Arya and Sansa. To the 'not dead' part: Yes, but it also a sign that he is not dead inside. He has not given up, even though he has lost almost everything by now.

:( :( :(

I could not agree more.

1. Bran's gets a funny feeling in his stomach when Meera is lifting him into the basket. Yes, it's written off as nerves about climbing up to the surface, but it also reads as sexual awakening for the first time.

Yes, I certainly agree here. It is definitely something we should keep in mind for future chapters. It is not the first time either, he blushed when she looked to him at the harvest feast, too.

2. I want to talk about the idea of katabasis. In Greek katabasis means "to go down" and is most often used in literature as a descent into the underworld--Odysseus, Aeneas, Orpheus, ect ect ect. Bran is now living amongst the dead and then reemerges to start a new life away from the home and and life he once knew. This is a rebirth. He is born again as not Bran Stark that we knew in AGOT but as something more, Bran the Winged Wolf, really. His descent into the underworld was out of necessity, just like Odysseus's. Odysseus and Aeneas leave with knowledge of what is to come, Bran leaves the crypts and then WF as a new person. Like I said above, he might not be sure of who that person is because he now has so many different facets, but it's someone new.

Excellent point. Myths are not exactly my strong point, but it definitely fits here. Bran certainly changed while he was in the crypts, although I hesitate to describe Bran as a new person. It is not quite as drastic I think.

Very nicely done!

Thank you!

I do not understand why Bran think's he'd be laid to rest in the crypts. He tells us earlier that only the Kings and Lords were laid to rest there. His father bucked the system when he loved his siblings so much that he decided to have their tombs put there (though some of us R+L=J peeps have a different reasoning). At the time of this chapter Bran is Robb's heir, not Lord or King, so why would he think he'd be entombed there?

I do not think that he has thought that far in this matter. He sees this as a Stark place and feels connected to the crypts. That it is only a place for the rulers could just not have occured to him, especially because his father built a tomb for Lyanna too.

Any thoughts or ideas out there as to why Summer saw a Dragon? I could understand Ghost/Jon seeing it, but I can't seem to grasp a Bran/Summer connection unless maybe a vision of the future?

I am not sure about this myself and I have not read a satisfactory explanation for it so far. If there ever will be one, it will be in the later books.

With Shaggy and Rickon consistently sharing personalities and characteristics I find this passage to be foreshadowing a power struggle between Bran and Rickon.

That could be the case, but it could also just be a display of their age difference. It is quite natural that a pack has power struggles, and since the boys and the wolves are connected Bran's higher age and mental strength in comparison to Rickon could show itself here.

Why should this scare them? Bran & Rickon are Robb's heirs and thought to be dead. If two-legged wolves = Starks (and by extension their allies) why wouldn't they wait around for them? Obviously Bran's journey is North but I never understood why these word's from Jojen went unchallenged.

Jojen is not a Stark. And the Stark children may have wolves that protect them, but wolves are predators, no matter how you look at it. And with that comes brutality. Two-legged wolves in this case does not mean Starks, it means plunderers and murderers. Just ask the people who got killed by Nymeria's pack in the Riverlands. I doubt she made a difference between someone who just lost his home and the person who destroyed it.

[BearQueen87]

Any thoughts or ideas out there as to why Summer saw a Dragon? I could understand Ghost/Jon seeing it, but I can't seem to grasp a Bran/Summer connection unless maybe a vision of the future?

More specifically Bran sees a fire dragon...which is bad. It represents the end of his home and his first life. But an ice dragon....that is more up his alley. (I really want to see an ice dragon)

I'd like to add...

Quote

That's a curious quote from Osha. Especially since Summer just described seeing a dragon. I would find it more fitting for a wilding to say "wake the dead"

What's even more curious is that you have part of the prophecy of waking the dragons from stone, coupled with last week's "a howl to wake the sleepers..."

Excellent point. Myths are not exactly my strong point, but it definitely fits here. Bran certainly changed while he was in the crypts, although I hesitate to describe Bran as a new person. It is not quite as drastic I think.

Just going back to this and your response, but Bran thinks

If I go up, will I ever come back down? Where will I go when I die?

But he does go "back down" eventually (not to jump ahead). There is another "crypt" that is also the land of the dead. So his journey is:

DOWN to WF crypts

UP to WF itself

DOWN to BR's tree

Can you ever exit the land of the dead twice?

[MoIaF]

A Clash of Kings

Bran VI

A good lord protects his people, he reminded himself. “I’ve yielded Winterfell to Theon.”

Summary

[snip]

Excellent analysis! :thumbsup:

Sorry, I'm a little late to the show, just trying to catch up now.

Wargs: Myth and Literature

There is a long-standing mythic and literary tradition of wargs or skinwalkers/skinchangers. These magical men-into-beasts exist in a variety of cultures and stories. Since this is the first chapter where Bran actively calls himself one of these (he uses the term beastling) I thought it would be a good idea to examine their history. It’s rather extensive but I’m going to touch on it broadly before narrowing down to two specific cases: the mythic lens of Norse mythology and the literary lens of J.R.R. Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings.

Let me start off by saying that the way Bran “skin walks” or “skin changes” is different than how it is often presented in myth whereby a person with this ability turns into the animal, as opposed to Bran’s gift of entering their mind but his physical body does not change.

In mythology, shapesifting is often a punishment from the gods. In Greek myth, Zeus turns Lycaon into a wolf; Athena turns Arachne into a spider; Artemis turns Acteon into a stag. All of these happened because the person who is changed had somehow angered the gods (murder, hubris, spying on a naked goddess). They also serve as origin stories: why do spiders spins webs? Because Arachne angered Athena and was turned into spider, doomed to spin a web forever. It makes me wonder how the Stark family got their warging abilities and the origin behind choosing a direwolf as their sigil. At what point did the Starks of the far past realize that they could warg? What is gifted to them from the COTF? Did it happen naturally? Did the First Men have this ability before they crossed the Narrow Sea?

Shapeshifting is rarely seen as a good thing. It presents the idea of deception. How do you know that the bird at your window is not your sworn enemy listening to all your secrets? Therefore, in years after Greco-Roman myths fell to organized religion, people who caused shapeshifting were sorcerers and witches. In short, when someone shapeshifts, either voluntarily (such as a god trying to rape a woman) or involuntarily, it is generally seen as a bad thing.

For example, if we look at the Native American tradition (and we know GRRM has used Native American myths in his own work) we have the Navajo tradition of the yee naaldlooshi. Specifically, these skinwalkers are practitioners of the “Witchery Way” and became such by breaking a cultural taboo.

X

I find the idea that this happens because of a “cursed song” to be interesting and perhaps relevant to Bran and even to the wights.

Shapeshifting is seen as a good thing if the subject does not stay in the animal form and returns to his human self, having gained some measure of wisdom. The blind Greek prophet Tiresias was transformed into another sex for many years before returning to his male state, and was the wiser for it, going so far as to called upon to answer questions about sexual pleasure for Hera and Zeus. Merlin often changes Arthur into an animal for didactic reasons, but always turns him back, Arthur having learned a valuable lesson.

Having covered shapeshfiting broadly, I want to talk specifically about wargs and Norse mythology. I’m covering this mythos because Bran and his teacher, the Three Eyed Crow, share a lot of Norse similarities. In my Bran II analysis for AGOT, I talked about crow mythology and how it linked back to Odin, the Allfather, for whom someone we have yet to meet properly is standing in.

The leading warg in Norse mythology (and I should note that “warg” comes from the Norse terms “vrgr” not one GRRM made up and it means wolf) is Fenrir, so I’ll be focusing on him. Some interesting notes about Fenrir include that the gods feared the monster wolf and so they bound him in various fetters. He is also foretold to kill Odin during Ragnorak, the Norse “end of the world” mythology. When Ragnorak is upon the world, Fenrir, who has been bound miles below the earth, will break free from his chains and engage in battle, before being slain by Odin’s son. (Warning bells should be going off in your head right about now).

GRRM obviously pulls from a lot of various mythologies and cultures the world over, so it’s pointless to try and line up Ragnorak and ASOIAF exactly, but Fenrir and Bran do share some parallels, such as the binding, their rather complicated relationship with their respective “Odin” figures, as well as being central to an “end of the world” story.

Setting aside Fenrir and Norse mythology, J.R.R. Tolkien takes up the idea of the Warg and skinchanging in his Lord of he Rings novels (and of course Tolkien and LOTR are incredibly influential in epic fantasy, even in GRRM’s work where he tries to “mess up” the tropes). Tolkien doesn’t deviate a lot from Norse wargs in that his wolf creatures are somewhat intelligent and also demonic. They are in league with the Orcs trying to take over Middle Earth, following Saruon. And speaking of the Eye in the Sky, according to the Silmarllion, Saruon used to have the ability to change his shape and was Lord of the Werewolves.

All of this explanation is in service of trying to show that Bran’s warging might be cause for concern for Bran-the-Boy as we move through the series. Wargs and those with the ability to skinchange have either done something wrong or are described as “evil.” GRRM does not believe in such broad terms and thus his own wargs are far more complicated. Bran’s warging abilities come not from punishment from the divine, but his blood. Its awakening is not actually his fault, but because of a tragic accident that happened to him. The wolves of GRRM’s world are also not demonic nor evil. They are actual animals who are linked to the Stark children as their protectors and familiars.

As we wait for Winds of Winter, I think keeping the gray area of warging in mind is important as is the Fenrir-Odin relationship.

Really excellent run through of the history of warging in myth and literature.

We've discussed this in the past and I find it a fascinating discussion. When I first read the books I didn't see anything wrong with the wargining, it was a cool gift the Stark children had inherited but as I began discussing the series I came to realize that it's not such a "awesome" ability

We tend to "appreciate" this ability because the Starks, who are the heroes of the story are the ones wielding it and if the heroes are doing it then it must be alright. But as we discover through their POV's are heroes are not always good and don't always do the right thing and so therefor not everything they do is good, we have to scrutinize their actions as we would with anyone else.

This scrutiny became easier when ADWD came out and we were able to see through V6S POV that the ability to warg or skinchange can be quite a bad thing. Like with most gift of magic, this also is a double edge sword. You are subjugating with your mind other beings, beings that don't want to be subjugate, don't want to share their body or minds with another being. It's bad alone you can control other animals but we see in Bran's case that a strong skinchanger can control weak-minded people, which is really bad.

The problem of course is that you can't control it, you can't make a skinchanger not change. Even if only "good" people had the gift what's to say a bad person wouldn't inherit it down the line.

Anyhow, it really makes you reconsider the various gifts/abilities our heroes have been given.

[BearQueen87]

Excellent analysis! :thumbsup:

Sorry, I'm a little late to the show, just trying to catch up now.

Really excellent run through of the history of warging in myth and literature.

We tend to "appreciate" this ability because the Starks, who are the heroes of the story are the ones wielding it and if the heroes are doing it then it must be alright. But as we discover through their POV's are heroes are not always good and don't always do the right thing and so therefor not everything they do is good, we have to scrutinize their actions as we would with anyone else.

Thanks :)

I agree with the bold and I also think there is a tendency to see the wolves as overgrow puppy dogs. We find them at birth when they are small and helpless and fuzzy and cute. We see the wolves do the things dogs do with their master--protect, be loyal, care for, play. (side note, but you never get a romanticized telling of Dany's dragons like you do with the wolves even though the dragons so the same things I just listed). The wolves, individually, fight alongside Robb, save Bran from an assassin, are used as a scare tactic at the Wall, and one is even killed for a crime it didn't commit and another driven off. So when the Starks start warging their wolves it is seen as another good thing because 1) the wolves are puppies and puppies are nice and 2) the wolves don't seem to mind (something I question given how Bran describes what happens to Hodor). I don't think that Summer minds to the extent that Hodor minds, but I do have to wonder if Summer (and the other wolves) isn't a bit miffed by the Bran-invasion at times.

[Illuminated by Fire]

This scrutiny became easier when ADWD came out and we were able to see through V6S POV that the ability to warg or skinchange can be quite a bad thing. Like with most gift of magic, this also is a double edge sword. You are subjugating with your mind other beings, beings that don't want to be subjugate, don't want to share their body or minds with another being. It's bad alone you can control other animals but we see in Bran's case that a strong skinchanger can control weak-minded people, which is really bad.

The problem of course is that you can't control it, you can't make a skinchanger not change. Even if only "good" people had the gift what's to say a bad person wouldn't inherit it down the line.

Anyhow, it really makes you reconsider the various gifts/abilities our heroes have been given.

I agree. The ability is not only something positive, but it comes with a great deal of responsibility. We have already seen that the bond between Bran and Summer can transfer aggression from Bran to Summer which Bran cannot completely control. And that lead directly to the Reeds being attacked by the direwolves. And even if you can control it properly, you can still use it in questionable ways. It is a bit like a sword, it does matter if someone like Brienne or if someone like Gregor wields it. But skinchanging is more far reaching and it is more difficult to defend against. We will see this very clearly in future chapters.

I agree with the bold and I also think there is a tendency to see the wolves as overgrow puppy dogs. We find them at birth when they are small and helpless and fuzzy and cute. We see the wolves do the things dogs do with their master--protect, be loyal, care for, play. (side note, but you never get a romanticized telling of Dany's dragons like you do with the wolves even though the dragons so the same things I just listed). The wolves, individually, fight alongside Robb, save Bran from an assassin, are used as a scare tactic at the Wall, and one is even killed for a crime it didn't commit and another driven off. So when the Starks start warging their wolves it is seen as another good thing because 1) the wolves are puppies and puppies are nice and 2) the wolves don't seem to mind (something I question given how Bran describes what happens to Hodor). I don't think that Summer minds to the extent that Hodor minds, but I do have to wonder if Summer (and the other wolves) isn't a bit miffed by the Bran-invasion at times.

Yes, this is something we need to be aware of. If someone in Westeros thinks of wolves, they will most likely not think 'Starks' but 'danger' (when they do not associate both to begin with). Wolves are dangerous, there is no way around that. In the case of the Stark children or at least Bran and Jon at this point, since Arya is seperated from her wolf and Rickon is too young, it is their responsibility to keep their wolves in check when they threaten other people which do not want to do them harm. This is pretty much what Eddard told them in the first Bran chapter and it still holds true. And this is what I wanted to point out with the Nymeria comment, because I very much doubt that anyone in the Riverlands associates her giant pack with something good instead of a huge danger. Regarding the intrusiveness (I hope that word fits here) of the link between the Stark children and their wolves: I do not think that Summer has anything against Bran skinchanging in him. Their bond seems very natural and Bran even says that Hodor behaves very differently (which is all I will say to that matter before aDwD). I would rather wonder if some part of Summer is in Bran at times, without Bran noticing. Jojen even says in chapter 4: "Part of you is Summer, and part of Summer is you. You know that, Bran." This lends itself to this interpretation.

[BearQueen87]

Regarding the intrusiveness (I hope that word fits here) of the link between the Stark children and their wolves: I do not think that Summer has anything against Bran skinchanging in him. Their bond seems very natural and Bran even says that Hodor behaves very differently (which is all I will say to that matter before aDwD). I would rather wonder if some part of Summer is in Bran at times, without Bran noticing. Jojen even says in chapter 4: "Part of you is Summer, and part of Summer is you. You know that, Bran." This lends itself to this interpretation.

Good point wrt Hodor. I forgot Bran says that.

But I do have to wonder how other animals who are not direwolves/not Summer would feel about Bran taking them over if there was no bond between warg and beast. If there was an animals that was less loyal, less tied to Bran, fiercer, more independent, ect...would the reaction of Bran inside their mind be as "okay" Bran-in-Summer? Something to ponder perhaps for when we get to ADWD.

[DarkSister1001]

Good point wrt Hodor. I forgot Bran says that.

But I do have to wonder how other animals who are not direwolves/not Summer would feel about Bran taking them over if there was no bond between warg and beast. If there was an animals that was less loyal, less tied to Bran, fiercer, more independent, ect...would the reaction of Bran inside their mind be as "okay" Bran-in-Summer? Something to ponder perhaps for when we get to ADWD.

Perhaps the cat in the HoBW?

[BearQueen87]

Perhaps the cat in the HoBW?

Good example. The cat doesn't seem to resent Arya but it's also a very brief intrusion that I'm not even sure Arya is fully aware of. Arya is also quite familiar with cats and they with her given her Cat of the Canals personality and her existence as a "cat" of Braavos.

But if it were....I dunno...a lion or something that is as fierce as a direwolf but lacking the link to the Warg. Would that creature be as pliable?

[Illuminated by Fire]

Good example. The cat doesn't seem to resent Arya but it's also a very brief intrusion that I'm not even sure Arya is fully aware of. Arya is also quite familiar with cats and they with her given her Cat of the Canals personality and her existence as a "cat" of Braavos.

But if it were....I dunno...a lion or something that is as fierce as a direwolf but lacking the link to the Warg. Would that creature be as pliable?

Discussing this leads inevitably to the Varamyr chapter, so I would say we discuss this when we get to this chapter. After all, it's almost completely about skinchanging, at least in this re-read.

[BearQueen87]

Discussing this leads inevitably to the Varamyr chapter, so I would say we discuss this when we get to this chapter. After all, it's almost completely about skinchanging, at least in this re-read.

Yup.

For the moment, then, it is suffice to say that when it comes to Bran and Summer, the direwolf does not feel like Bran is an intruder because the boy and his wolf are linked as one being even when Bran is not inside Summer.

Going back to something DarkSister said

I do not understand why Bran think's he'd be laid to rest in the crypts. He tells us earlier that only the Kings and Lords were laid to rest there. His father bucked the system when he loved his siblings so much that he decided to have their tombs put there (though some of us R+L=J peeps have a different reasoning). At the time of this chapter Bran is Robb's heir, not Lord or King, so why would he think he'd be entombed there?

Hm. I don't know. Had Bran not been pushed off a tower, he would have eventually done as most second sons do and held another keep (not WF) in Robb's name and served as Robb's bannerman. When he died, his sons would inherit his keep and he would be buried in that keep's crypt most likely. Perhaps it's because now he is a prince but has no "second son" future as he once did so he imagines that he'll always be at WF and be buried there because he'll never hold a keep of his own and Robb wouldn't deny his once heir and brother a place among their ancestors. Robb is very much Ned's son and if Ned did it for Lyanna (for reasons that no one except Ned knows) then Robb would do it for Bran.

[tom_snow]

Hey everyone, I've been reading along and love the discussions. Thank you all for doing this. I love the books and find this level of discussion very interesting and enlightening.

So, I always had the impression that all of the Starks were buried in the tombs, and it was just the Kings of Winter and Lords of Winterfell who had statues. I unfortunately don't have a citation, but it would explain Bran's belief that he would one day end up there.

[BearQueen87]

Hey everyone, I've been reading along and love the discussions. Thank you all for doing this. I love the books and find this level of discussion very interesting and enlightening.

So, I always had the impression that all of the Starks were buried in the tombs, and it was just the Kings of Winter and Lords of Winterfell who had statues. I unfortunately don't have a citation, but it would explain Bran's belief that he would one day end up there.

Yeah I think you're right, actually. And welcome to the re-read!

[DarkSister1001]

Hey everyone, I've been reading along and love the discussions. Thank you all for doing this. I love the books and find this level of discussion very interesting and enlightening.

So, I always had the impression that all of the Starks were buried in the tombs, and it was just the Kings of Winter and Lords of Winterfell who had statues. I unfortunately don't have a citation, but it would explain Bran's belief that he would one day end up there.

Welcome to the forum and the re-read! Oh right, I forgot about that. The Starks of WF get the statues but all of the Starks get buried there. Thanks! For some reason I was thinking the Lords & Kings go into the crypts and the others go into the lichyard like Lady, Sansa's wolf.

[Illuminated by Fire]

Welcome to the re-read, tom_snow!

I have some organizational questions: I am currently working on the Jojen/Luwin comparison. But it is turning out to be fairly extensive. So the question is: Should I post it just when I'm finished, do we make a week slot free for this and push the other chapter analyses back a week or should I hold on to it until we are finished with aDwD and I post it afterwards?

[BearQueen87]

Welcome to the re-read, tom_snow!

I have some organizational questions: I am currently working on the Jojen/Luwin comparison. But it is turning out to be fairly extensive. So the question is: Should I post it just when I'm finished, do we make a week slot free for this and push the other chapter analyses back a week or should I hold on to it until we are finished with aDwD and I post it afterwards?

That is probably up to MOIAF, but my recommendation/preference would be that it has to come before Bran I of ASOS since Luwin just passed.

[Illuminated by Fire]

That is probably up to MOIAF, but my recommendation/preference would be that it has to come before Bran I of ASOS since Luwin just passed.

The problem is that I need to use some quotes from aSoS (and one of aDwD). I could let them out but then the comparison would lack some points I think are fairly interesting.

[BearQueen87]

The problem is that I need to use some quotes from aSoS (and one of aDwD). I could let them out but then the comparison would lack some points I think are fairly interesting.

Then the end of ADWD? I know when we finished the final chapter of the Dany re-read we ended up talking for another 2ish weeks (and planned another spontaneous re-read....) so you could do it then?

[Illuminated by Fire]

Then the end of ADWD? I know when we finished the final chapter of the Dany re-read we ended up talking for another 2ish weeks (and planned another spontaneous re-read....) so you could do it then?

I looked over the part again which has the quote from aDwD. I can use a quote from aCoK instead. Other than that I should be able to write it with only quotes from the first aSoS chapter. So I could post the analysis next week on Wednesday or Thursday when the initial discussion is mostly done.