Attacks in Winterfell

[nickdt]

Benjen is the HM because There Must Always be A Stark in Winterfell. Unless Benjen has a Secret Son.

[Har!]

Well there are a few different takes on this.. but I, for one, don't think it's implied that the spearwives confessed anything to Theon... just as it's never implied that he tells them outright that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon

He

specifically recalls keeping this secret in the TWoW Theon chapter.

He figures they wouldn't believe him whatever he said , just as he wouldn't believe their denial , if they made one. On top of that, I don't think there's any advantage to the spearwives (or Mance) in sowing dissention inside WF. That only creates more watchfulness and suspicion ( it certainly has in Theon) and as we see, ultimately makes them have to alter their plan. They obviously hoped to be acting under cover of darkness ( "Arya" generally bathed in the evening ) .The tension boiling over when it did only made executing their plan more dangerous.

The following is all from "A Ghost in Winterfell"

Here's the first victim... a man-at-arms of four-and-forty years who had marched north with Roger Ryswell. “A drunk,” Ryswell declared. “Pissing off the wall, I’ll wager. He slipped and fell.” No one disagreed. But Theon Greyjoy found himself wondering why any man would climb the snow-slick steps to the battlements in the black of night just to take a piss.

Theon is right to wonder, but no-one disagrees because Roger Rysewell knows the man to be a drunk ...and even if he has a slight suspicion , if Roger's with the GNC, he doesn't want anything rocking the boat, for now.

Next we have...The next morning Ser Aenys Frey’s grizzled squire was found naked and dead of exposure in the old castle lichyard, his face so obscured by hoarfrost that he appeared to be wearing a mask. Ser Aenys put it forth that the man had drunk too much and gotten lost in the storm, though no one could explain why he had taken off his clothes to go outside. Another drunkard, Theon thought. Wine could drown a host of suspicions.

Then, before the day was done, a crossbowman sworn to the Flints turned up in the stables with a broken skull. Kicked by a horse, Lord Ramsay declared. A club, more like, Theon decided.

Theon has good reason to be suspicious, and he thinks..

It all seemed so familiar, like a mummer show that he had seen before. Only the mummers had

changed. Roose Bolton was playing the part that Theon had played the last time round, and the dead men were playing the parts of Aggar, Gynir Rednose, and Gelmarr the Grim. Reek was there too, he remembered, but he was a different Reek, a Reek with bloody hands and lies dripping from his lips, sweet as honey. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with sneak.

Here, "sneak" refers to Ramsay, when he was Reek. (At that time, back in ACoK, Theon came to realise that Ramsay was killing off Theon's own men who knew about the miller's boys.)..And at this juncture...

The deaths set Roose Bolton’s lords to quarreling openly in the Great Hall. Some were running

short of patience. “How long must we sit here waiting for this king who never comes?” Ser Hosteen Frey demanded. “We should take the fight to Stannis and make an end to him.”

Since Barrowton, Ramsay always wanted to take the fight to Stannis and resented having to do things Roose's way , now he has others falling into line with his thinking, causing friction.

Following this , the Stables collapse (which could actually be due to the snow... or not)... Lord Bolton appeared briefly in the outer ward to inspect the scene, then ordered the remaining horses brought inside, along with the mounts still tethered in the outer ward. And no sooner had the men finished digging out the dead men and butchering the horses than another corpse was found. .... Yellow Dick. ( We'll skip the gruesome details, for now. )

“Burn the body,” Roose Bolton ordered, “and see that you do not speak of this. I’ll not have this tale spread.”

The tale spread nonetheless. By midday most of Winterfell had heard, many from the lips of Ramsay Bolton, whose “boy” Yellow Dick had been.“When we find the man who did this,” Lord Ramsay promised, “I will flay the skin off him, cook it crisp as crackling, and make him eat it, every bite.” Word went out that the killer’s name would be worth a golden dragon.

Why would Ramsay kill YD? Betrayal. We know from Roose's own lips that all Ramsay's men are really Roose's men. Roose is not pleased with Ramsay's treatment of "Arya"...

“The bride weeps,”... ...“Roose is not pleased. Tell your bastard that.” ,Barbrey tells Theon when he takes her to the crypts. That's an attempt to send a message from Roose , through Barbrey ,through Theon to Ramsay. ...I would bet the message was important enough to have been sent by other messengers, as well ..and if Theon might suspect Ramsay of the killings... so might Roose. (Ramsay would have told Roose what went down when he took Winterfell and how he brought it about. He's proud of his achievements.) If so, a message might have been sent about the killings , too ...Roose can see the rage that was visited on Yellow Dick... and now, Ramsay disobeys Roose's direct order by talking up YD's death .. continuing to spread disention.

GRRM gives us two more subtle clues - one in the connection between YD's body, with it's penis in it's mouth and Ramsay's promised treatment of the killer.. to make him eat his own flayed skin ... and one more in describing the smell in the great hall... The reek within the Great Hall was palpable by eventide. ...he could easily have used say, "stench" or "miasma" , or found another way to express it, but I think he wants us to connect reek with "Reek" ... and not with Theon/Reek who we know is not guilty. He tells us that the aura or atmosphere is palpable..it can be sensed ..almost felt. As soon as he got a chance, " Theon fled quickly,"... as he would like to flee Ramsay.

But now, probably because he's so used to YD being Ramsay's right hand man, Theon doesn't make the connection( though I think we should). ... He meets the Hooded Man , and begins to second guess himself ... wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick’s cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell’s groom off the battlements.

Still later the same evening, Theon is interrogated. Aenys Frey suggests he could be the killer because he can still hold a dagger, but... “These dead were all strong men,” said Roger Ryswell, “and none of them were stabbed. The turncloak’s not our killer.”

Next, Frey tries to blame Manderly, but Barbrey Dustin responds.. “And Lord Wyman is not the only man who lost kin at your Red Wedding, Frey. Do you imagine Whoresbane loves you any better? If you did not hold the Greatjon, he would pull out your entrails and make you eat them, as Lady Hornwood ate her fingers..." ... a further real example connecting Ramsay with forcing a person to self-devour .

In spite of Roger Ryswell pointing out none of the victims had been stabbed, Theon begins to focus on cutting weapons.. Roose Bolton’s pale eyes were fixed on Theon, as sharp as Skinner’s flaying knife. ... and... He wondered if Lady Dustin had told them about the crypts, the missing swords.

He walks. The horns and drums begin. He begins to wish ... Theon wondered if he might be allowed to fight. Then at least he might die a man’s death, sword in hand. ... and later that night, in the godswood he prays ... “Please.” He fell to his knees. “A sword, that’s all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek.”

The spearwives come to take him to Abel and overhear him. They mock him..

“I told you. I want to touch you, turncloak.” Holly smiled. In her hand a blade appeared. ...

... ... “Touch me,” he said. “Kill me.” There was more despair than defiance in his voice. “Go on. Do me, the way you did the others. Yellow Dick and the rest. It was you.”

Holly laughed. “How could it be us? We’re women. Teats and cunnies. Here to be fucked, not feared.”

Rowan adds... “Did the Bastard hurt you?” Rowan asked. “Chopped off your fingers, did he? Skinned your widdle toes? Knocked your teeth out? Poor lad.” She patted his cheek. “There will be no more o’ that, I promise. You prayed, and the gods sent us. You want to die as Theon? We’ll give you that. A nice quick death, ’twill hardly hurt at all.” She smiled. “But not till you’ve sung for Abel. He’s waiting for you.” ... She is the most openly antagonistic toward Theon and calls Ned "Lord Eddard", while calling Theon "kinslayer" .. but however much she hates him, his life or death is not up to her. "Abel" is calling the shots.

Theon never considers them as the killer(s) until he sees the blade in in Holly's hand, yet we know the other deaths were not by stabbing or cutting. Cut wounds only come in with yellow Dick , and we don't know if that was what killed him, or if it was done after killing him. Looking back at his killing...

This one could not be waved away as some drunken tumble or the kick of a horse. The dead

man was one of Ramsay’s favorites, the squat, scrofulous, ill-favored man-at-arms called Yellow Dick. Whether his dick had actually been yellow was hard to determine, as someone had sliced it off and stuffed it into his mouth so forcefully they had broken three of his teeth. When the cooks found him outside the kitchens, buried up to his neck in a snowdrift, both dick and man were blue from cold.

This is the only cutting or stabbing wound that is ever mentioned until we get to Little Walder. There's not even any mention of blood at the scene.

We don't see the conversation between Theon , Mance and the spearwives, but I see no reason why they would confess to him , and I see no reason why Mance would have them engage in the killings.. We've seen at least a part of what it costs them to have to try to escape in the chaos the killings have helped to create. I think Mance is smarter than that and would have preferred to act in relative quiet.

Theon had already made up his mind in the godswood, perhaps partly in wishful thinking . They find him when he's despairing that he will probably have to die as Reek ... and he apparently has exacted a promise from Mance that they will kill him rather than let him fall back into Ramsay's hands.

Little Walder's death is an outlier. Here a cutting weapon ( or weapons) is used and he is said to have been "butchered" ( throat cut?) Big Walder is covered in blood . Without dissecting it fully, I think it was Big Walder, directed by Roose . ( Little Walder was on his way to becoming one of Ramsays favourite "boys" .. and he was not Roose's man.)

Kudos on a tour de force, excellent break down,

i agree with everything up to little Walder, will have to think that part over,

all very reminiscent of Ramsey's version Reek and also reminiscent of Ramsey's 'indirect' methods of bringing about his desired results (the death of the true-born heir of house Bolton comes to mind)

I had subscribed to little Walder having been killed by Ramsey himself in one of his rages given the ferocity of the attack, described as being butchered like a pig and didn't Roose describe Ramsey's skill with the sword (more like a cleaver) as ferocious if not skilled?

Will have to rethink this in light of your analysis, great job

[SerPenguin]

The hooded man in Winterfell has done the killings.

The hooded man is Hallis Mollen, former captain of the guards at Winterfell, and has returned with Ned's bones.

[yankee211]

The hooded man in Winterfell has done the killings.

The hooded man is Hallis Mollen, former captain of the guards at Winterfell, and has returned with Ned's bones.

Why Mollen?

[SerPenguin]

Why Mollen?

When looking at the evidence there is very little to go on for any character being honest.

I like the idea of it being Hallis, especially returning Neds bones.

[yankee211]

When looking at the evidence there is very little to go on for any character being honest.

I like the idea of it being Hallis, especially returning Neds bones.

I always thought Ned's bones is at Greywater Watch

[SerPenguin]

I always thought Ned's bones is at Greywater Watch

Well the last we hear of the whereabouts of Neds remains are when Catelyn sent Hallis to bring them home to Winterfell. However at some point on that journey Victarion took Moat Cailen. If it was taken before Hallis reached Moat Cailin it could well be that he made his way to Greywater Watch with the help of the crannogmen. Lady Dustin said they never made it to Borrowton so if they made it passed Moat Cailin they should have made it to Barrowton but I'm not sure she is being genuine.

Greywater watch is a good bet either way.

[yankee211]

Well the last we hear of the whereabouts of Neds remains are when Catelyn sent Hallis to bring them home to Winterfell. However at some point on that journey Victarion took Moat Cailen. If it was taken before Hallis reached Moat Cailin it could well be that he made his way to Greywater Watch with the help of the crannogmen. Lady Dustin said they never made it to Borrowton so if they made it passed Moat Cailin they should have made it to Barrowton but I'm not sure she is being genuine.

Greywater watch is a good bet either way.

I agree with you, now, it is safe to assume certain characters who has not been mention a lot in the books are responsible for the attacks. The Mollen theory is interesting, but whoever is doing it, I could bet Howland or a few crannogmen is involved.