Sexual exploitation of girls and women in the Summer Isles and other places

[Forever May]

Oh. My. God. Now all Muslims violate little girls? Good to know, really. And you can't say women are being exploited and ignore the fact that men get the same treatment. It is not okay to use anyone for sex. I'm just saying that we don't see any abuse from a religious Summer Islander, and you presume too much in saying they violate/rape people in an institutionalized way. What we see is consensual sex, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Did I say all Muslims? Nope. It was an example and there are examples by other religions besides. And can you please answer, as everyone seems to be ignoring it, how does exploiting men in unison absolve the exploitation of women? It doesn't.

[Aemond's Eye]

I just don't like the idea of being used by another.

Yes, and that's fine. You finding the idea of that being dehumanizing is also fine. I myself am not someone that engages in casual sex. However, the idea that it is dehumanizing absolute is what I disagree with - because it's not. Whether it's dehumanizing varies on the persons and situation.

That's got nothing to do with my age or virginity. And you're ignoring my arguments about the concept of religion and brainwashing. The idea that the consent was coerced with peer pressure and existing religious expectations.

To be honest, I don't see any point in going down the road of religious discussion.

Nor is there such a thing as something being dehumanizing only to me. If you respect a person, you behave a certain way towards them, you do not use their body for sexual gratification.

Again, this is your moral 'code' - it doesn't apply to everyone else. You find the idea of men only being interested in you for sex dehumanizing - that, however, does not mean that a man only being interested in a woman for sex is dehumanizing, or that he treats her with disrespect; it depends entirely on the individuals involved. (Same goes for women using men, women using women, and men using men.) There is nothing wrong with using your body for sexual gratification, in my opinion - sexual gratification is a natural function of the human body. But regardless of that, my point is that applying your morals to everyone else is a daft road to go down, as you're going to apply them to other people - women included - who really don't agree, and who are you to tell them what is or isn't dehumanizing to them?

[Forever May]

Well, perhaps you were looking for this sort of reaction?

I was smart enough to anticipate it because I understand the fact that most Westerners believe non-white peoples are not entitled to the same degree of human rights and dignity because they have "special cultural circumstances." It's rubbish. But it is often suggested that when people like me demand fair treatment for abuse victims, that this amounts to dealing damage to their culture, thus we have the cultural defense I am encountering here. I expected it.

I mean, the moment it was pointed out to you that women aren't exploited in the Summer Isles as there's not a different standard between them and the boys, you shrugged it off with, "I don't care about the boys," and have went back to the "exploitation of women" mantra.

You didn't point that out, I already knew it and I answered it anyway above. I made a thread dealing with the woman aspect because women tend to be more vulnerable in this sort of abuse and I cared more for it.

"Do you really think it is okay to use women for sex?" Actually, yes - I don't think it's necessarily wrong.

Well that says it all, doesn't it?

Just a word of warning, if you do not believe women deserve more respect and dignity than having their bodies used for sexual gratification, don't be surprised when that disrespect is returned in kind.

Your conclusions that it's mostly predatory men raping young girls on the Summer Isles is based on your own opinion, rather than what we know of the Summer Isles.

Exploitation not raping.

[MotherOfPuppy]

If you write a post titled "sexual exploitation of girls and women", you imply that men are not being exploited. Sexual exploitation of person A does not absolve that of person B, but it's not sexist if men and women are both affected. And the only kind of Muslim who will tell you that sexual exploitation and mutilation of girls is cool is the sort who are rejected by the Muslim community because of their extremist sentiments. And you wrote "Muslims will tell you ", not " some religious fanatics will tell you".

[Aemond's Eye]

Well that says it all, doesn't it?

Just a word of warning, if you do not believe women deserve more respect and dignity than having their bodies used for sexual gratification, don't be surprised when that disrespect is returned in kind.

Where did I say that women don't deserve respect? If anything, it's you - an adolescent - who is telling adults what is and isn't respectful when it comes to sexual relations, and you're rather presumptuous about how they view women based on it. I don't see anything indignant about a purely sexual relationship between any two people, so long as both parties are clear that's what it is.

Just a word of warning, when you're condescending to others then they return it in kind.

[Forever May]

To be honest, I don't see any point in going down the road of religious discussion.

Not real world religions, I agree, but this is a discussion on Summer Isle's religion.

Again, this is your moral 'code' - it doesn't apply to everyone else. You find the idea of men only being interested in you for sex dehumanizing - that, however, does not mean that a man only being interested in a woman for sex is dehumanizing, or that he treats her with disrespect; it depends entirely on the individuals involved. (Same goes for women using men, women using women, and men using men.) There is nothing wrong with using your body for sexual gratification, in my opinion - sexual gratification is a natural function of the human body. But regardless of that, my point is that applying your morals to everyone else is a daft road to go down, as you're going to apply them to other people - women included - who really don't agree, and who are you to tell them what is or isn't dehumanizing to them?

This is pure nonsense. How is it not respectful to care nothing for who a person is but to only want to use their body? And whilst there is nothing wrong with using your own body for sexual gratification, there is indeed something wrong with using somebody else's body for it.

[Aemond's Eye]

This is pure nonsense. How is it not respectful to care nothing for who a person is but to only want to use their body? And whilst there is nothing wrong with using your own body for sexual gratification, there is indeed something wrong with using somebody else's body for it.

How is it pure nonsense? You're assuming that two people can't have a mutually agreeable sexual relationship. From your posts it often reads as though only men want to 'use' someone else's body for sexual gratification, and perhaps that's the way you view things in Thailand - but it's certainly not true. Women also seek sexual gratification, and many of them do so without wanting to be married to someone.

[The Once and Future King]

Sexual exploitation of girls and women in the Summer Isles and other places

Some quotes from the World of Ice and Fire novella:

“Though a score of gods both great and small are honored on the Summer Isles, a special reverence is shown to the god and goddess of love, beauty, and fertility. The union of male and female is sacred to these deities; by joining together in this act of worship, the islanders believe, men and women give honor to the gods who made them. Be they rich or poor, male or female, of high birth or low, all Summer Islanders are expected to dwell for a time in the temples of love that dot the islands, sharing their bodies with any who might desire them.”

“Most serve the gods for no more than a year, but those deemed the most beautiful, the most compassionate, and the most skilled remain. In Braavos they might be called courtesans, whilst in King’s Landing they were thought no more than whores, but on Jhala, Walano, Omboru, and the other isles these priests and priestesses are much esteemed, for here the giving of carnal pleasure is regarded as an art as worthy of respect as music, sculpture, or dance.”

My initial reaction when traditions like this from the tale dawned upon me was a mixture of disgust and disappointment. Although not towards Martin, but the reality that it’s so realistic (i.e. women being exploited for sex, then being told it’s all part of god’s plan or such, this does happen in the real world). The same sort of thing appears to happen in Meereen with the Graces, yet I can’t find much information on that in the novella thingy. Equally as abhorrent I thought, was seeing some people on the forum trying to press the liberal stamp of approval into such practices. Which is why I thought I’d make a thread about it. Simply, people ought to possess sharper senses when recognizing something that is degrading towards women and clearly little more than sexual exploitation. A scolding on morality was in order, so here goes…

I do have one question first however. In the books, we see the people who are quickly drawn to the idea of sex as a religion are men who have a history of whoring. I wonder, are the people lumbering around the forum praising the Summer Islanders and Graces for this also men? And what do the resident feminists think of this and my following arguments?

Okay. Most of us will be familiar with the religions and practices I’m talking about, they appear at several occasions throughout the books in both King’s Landing and Meereen. In King’s Landing, we have the brothel where Chattaya is from the Summers Isles and sells her own daughter Alayaya as a prostitute for the sexual gratification of any man with enough coin. In Meereen, the Dornish boys favor the temple over the brothel because it’s cheaper, obviously.

Now the distinction has to be made between consent and exploitation and why this isn’t liberal, like some fellows appear to profess. A liberal society for example, is someplace where an individual is free to pursue a relationship with whoever they desire and the couple’s bond of mutual affection is respected or at least legally tolerated and protected. Please keep this point in mind.

This scenario is vastly different than the reality we have here, where women are convinced into attending temples where they are simply used for sex by men they would not normally be sexually attracted to. This is not a normal thing, as the lust is not mutual. It is simply using women for their bodies, blatant exploitation. A beautiful young girl for example, is not going to enjoy some great lumbering whale of a man bending her over and… well, you know. And that is what appears to happen.

The argument still exists that there is some measure of consent involved. Of course, if a woman consents to allow her body to be used for sex by another, even if she doesn’t enjoy the sex, then that is her right (I grudgingly suppose). That isn’t the case here however, as this appears to be a combination of peer pressure and religious brainwashing that coerce women into partaking, as there is no natural explanation for this (i.e. the women don’t want the sex, so clearly they’re doing it because of other factors than natural desire, such as social and religious pressure/expectations). People should always be cautious when religion is involved in sexual practices… I would’ve thought we had all learned that by now, but it seems not.

It says that, all are expected to dwell at the temples. This suggests some measure of social conditioning where women are raised to believe it is their duty to turn their bodies over to the use of others. Is it considered a shameful thing to not want ugly men fucking you? That’s a serious question. Is it considered disrespectful to your culture and gods not to whore yourself out? Another serious question. The amount of peer pressure and level of expectations obviously being applied here can have serious gravity and explain why women are giving their “consent” for something that women would never consent to in a natural environment. This is clearly an artificial culture that can only survive by being deliberately propagated, typically by those who benefit from it. And such is why it strikes me as decidedly illiberal.

And a scenario where a snake is constantly eating its own tail does fit. In the case of say Chattaya, where she has turned her body over for the use of others presumably since she was a child, her position and value in society is based on her acceptance of the culture that has otherwise humiliated and abused her. It is very easy for someone to see the merits in just about anything when the only alternative is coming to the realization that… well, you know, oh it’s a little blunt to say it… that you’ve spent your life as a free-for-use whore and not as a priestess. Obviously outside of the Summer Isles, such women are not going to command any respect. So it’s no surprise Chattaya has chosen to ignore the reality of her station in favor of the religious fairy tale she grew up with where she’s some sort of divine. This is the instance of brainwashing, where someone is believing something that is otherwise irrational and even passing that on to their children.

In the end, it all whittles down to the simple using of women for sexual gratification however. Don’t use women for your own selfish pleasure, respect their person! Simply claiming to respect these women isn’t enough when it is clearly the body and sex that is being “respected” and not the woman herself or who she really is. And the arrangement is of course all too convenient for men to claim it isn’t sexist. In a society which is clearly primitive and backwards, it’s difficult to imagine a way that such a tradition could’ve developed in any way that wasn’t jarringly exploitative, as that is what it is in modern A Song of Ice and Fire world.

So what are your thoughts?

Thank ye kindly.

Yours truly,

The fayrest may that euer went

P.S. This post is pretty messy when I read it myself. Oh well. Sorry. But my point isn’t difficult to grasp, that one should look a bit closer at things before grinning widely and nodding in approval. As the idea of women being expected to service men that they have no desire for is clearly disgusting and immoral for a number of reasons, not to mention exploitative and degrading!

It is backword twisted closeminded reverse misogyny like this that makes people embarrassed to call themselves feminists.

To have a problem with those who can see the intrinsic beauty and spirit of sex is one thing but to impoae your smallminded view on the sexes onto a people we kniw next to nothing about is just stupid.

[Lord Varys]

Forever May,

I share a lot of views described above about real world issues. However, projecting your own views on the sketchily outlined religion of the Summer Islanders is not really going to lead us anywhere, as we cannot be sure that George has envisioned them the way you perceive them (at least not without more textual evidence).

Nothing suggests, for instance, that somebody - either man or woman - is forced to have sex with a person showing up in the temple if they don't want to. If that was the case, they would be exactly like prostitutes in the real world. But that may not be the case (although I'd agree that this is the case in Chataya's brothel). If I remember the sections right, then Martin tries to paint the Summer Islanders as a people which does not really consider sex the way you or I do. They have temples where you can go to when you want to have sex, but you are also expected/encouraged to stage an orgy during a funeral. Real world societies banish sexuality in the private sphere, whereas on the Summer Islands it is part of everyday life and worship. I'm not sure how this works in detail, or whether such a culture can work in the real world, but considering that we are talking about a fantasy world George can always say his Summer Islanders are perfectly happy with the situation.

Even more so, the Summer Islands are also a society in which the sexes are treated as equals. Which makes it very unlikely that the society has been shaped to or developed mechanisms to degrade and exploit females and female sexuality.

You could be right about the Ghiscari Graces, though.