How good will Jon get?

[The Boar of Gore]

Which doesn't contradict my point: Jaime is full of it, and wears nostalgia goggles.

Well now, I thought your point was you didn't remember Jaime "ever thinking Loras or Garlan were weak compared to his childhood heroes" (quoting you). Now your point seems to be that we can't rely on Jaime's memories. Admittedly, his judgment may be affected by nostalgia but that isn't to say he isn't right, especially given the huge reputation of Aerys's seven.

I'm claiming you cannot draw a general rule about future encounters based on a singular event, and that mathematics such as Brienne>Jaime>Loras>Arya are meaningless. (in that vein, I'll say it now: The Tickler, the Sarsfield squire, the Bolton guard and Dareon were all better swordfighters than Arya)

No contradiction there. We can rank people without inferring a general rule about future encounters. That's what happens in real life in sports like boxing or horse-racing or tennis. Upsets happen but the odds on them are longer.

By the way, I'm not saying Brienne is better than Jaime.

And yeah, I'm claiming that the Bitterbridge tourney circumstances brought out unusual skill from Brienne. It's only the truth, she says it herself: she was fighting for her love, her dream and nothing could stop her, just like Jorah at that tourney, it wasn't a random exchange with a random guy on a random battlefield. And she ended it with fists and brawling, not weapons (or Loras would have won).

Fair enough: she had unusual motivation at that event (she also still has unusual motivation, only now it's to keep her vows to Catelyn). However, I would say she's consistently portrayed as a great fighter.

As for ending it with fists and brawling, I don't see that as a point against her at all. That's what happens in a melee: it's a free-for-all. In fact Loras attacks her immediately after she fights off two other knights who gang up on her (which gives him an advantage) just after her shield gets broken (which gives him yet another advantage). Loras is able to knock the morning star out of her hand, but Brienne is able to wrench the axe out of his hand, which is pretty amazing, before finally defeating him. I don't see how you can fail to admire how Brienne did it.

It also seems likely, judging by the general hostility toward her and the state of her armour, helm, and shield, that plenty of people had been ganging up on her in the course of the melee.

I'm sorry, but staying on the defensive is easier, it's even the standard fallback position for when you are not skilled enough to attack while still defending yourself.

Fair enough, but we know the reason Brienne refrains from attack is she has sworn to deliver Jaime safely, not because she lacks the skill.

Ned is consistently shown as an average fighter, if you are going to argue that we should consider Brienne to be good to great from hints in the text, it'd be somewhat hypocritical to ignore them (or actually argue my point: that they are meaningless) when it comes to Ned. Reed saves him and survives too, by the way, and is explicitly said to be a bad swordfighter.

Maybe you could point to the places in the text where it is shown Ned is merely average, and I won't ignore them.

[slintank]

i've always wondered why Royce joined the NW in the first place. He's a young knight and is not a bad guy. He must have known that the NW doesn't really make you a legend which is kind of what it sounds like he was looking for do you think there was another reason

I think it's because he was a young son from a family with many heirs, like the Starks with Benjen. Perhaps joining the NW is like becoming a priest etc in the old days in the real world. It's a good way of preventing in family fighting...

[Errant Bard]

Maybe you could point to the places in the text where it is shown Ned is merely average, and I won't ignore them.

Late reply but we have:

1) The Jaime incident in King's Landing. Really poor performance from Ned, if he's supposed to be a super-swordsman.

2) Ned saying Brandon was the swordsman of the family (AGOT, obviously)

3) Ned reportedly being hammered in the practice yard of Winterfell by the likes of Bronze Yohn or the GreatJon (Sansa in AFFC and Arya in ASOS reporting it iirc, so that's not when he was a fledging youth)

4) Arguably: Ned not taking part in Harrenhal's tourney when Brandon did. He was old enough.

5) The fact that Ned says the Crannogman saved him, and the Crannogman is explicitly described as a poor swordsman (who gets beaten by mere squires)

6) The absence of evidence to the contrary (something Arya or Howland did (winning against infinitely better swordsman) doesn't prove one's worth at swordsmanship)

[The Boar of Gore]

Late reply but we have:

1) The Jaime incident in King's Landing. Really poor performance from Ned, if he's supposed to be a super-swordsman.

2) Ned saying Brandon was the swordsman of the family (AGOT, obviously)

3) Ned reportedly being hammered in the practice yard of Winterfell by the likes of Bronze Yohn or the GreatJon (Sansa in AFFC and Arya in ASOS reporting it iirc, so that's not when he was a fledging youth)

4) Arguably: Ned not taking part in Harrenhal's tourney when Brandon did. He was old enough.

5) The fact that Ned says the Crannogman saved him, and the Crannogman is explicitly described as a poor swordsman (who gets beaten by mere squires)

6) The absence of evidence to the contrary (something Arya or Howland did (winning against infinitely better swordsman) doesn't prove one's worth at swordsmanship)

I think all of these are subject to interpretation, not conclusive. I'll address each one in turn.

1) Ned is outnumbered and taken by surprise, but he reacts quickly enough to kill one of them if I recall correctly and to allow Jory time to get away had Jory not been too loyal to seize his chance.

2) Brandon is better than Ned, but that doesn't mean Ned is not a skilful fighter. It may mean Brandon was exceptional. Ned is modest so he may underrate himself. He's also dutiful and takes the business of fighting very seriously because he's mindful of his responsibility to protect his people from unnecessary harm. So he's not the type to glory in fighting.

3) This counts against him but then Bronze Yohn is known as an outstanding fighter, whereas Ned at that time was past his prime. The GreatJon is pretty formidable too (I don't recall him and Ned sparring but I'll take your word for it).

4) Ned doesn't fight for sport. We know that. He fights when he has to.

5) Are you trying to suggest that the Crannogman was a better swordsman than Ned? Any number of things could have happened that wouldn't require good skill with a sword from Howland Reed. After all, Arya arguably saved Sandor in the fight at the inn, but it didn't take skill to step up behind the Tickler and stick him with the pointy end. To me, this fight against 3 members of the Kingsguard is the most telling evidence that Ned has been underrated. When it counted most, he came through - and no one else in that fight did. Howland saved him, true, but there must have been many other times during the fight when the only one parrying swordthrusts against Ned was Ned.

6) Well all I'm saying is that Ned was good, not merely average.

[Ronzolo]

5) Are you trying to suggest that the Crannogman was a better swordsman than Ned? Any number of things could have happened that wouldn't require good skill with a sword from Howland Reed. After all, Arya arguably saved Sandor in the fight at the inn, but it didn't take skill to step up behind the Tickler and stick him with the pointy end. To me, this fight against 3 members of the Kingsguard is the most telling evidence that Ned has been underrated. When it counted most, he came through - and no one else in that fight did. Howland saved him, true, but there must have been many other times during the fight when the only one parrying swordthrusts against Ned was Ned.

Wow, feels like forever since I visited this board, but I was feeling nostalgic ...

With regard to Howland Reed, and crannogmen in general, don't we learn from Meera that the net and trident are their preferred weapons? Not necessarily a good combination to go to war with, but if you're helping out your good friend in a fight to the death, seems like a net and trident might well be useful tools, well able to even the odds.

[allanon]

I agree with you here. I believe that Martin is setting Jon up to primarily become a great battle Commander but in AFoC, he also highlights Jon determination to become a better swordsman. There is a purpose here.

The first Azor Azai, had to sacrifice his lover in order to forge Lightbringer. I believe that Jon will become Dany's love, and assuming that Dany is Azor then Jon will sacrifice himself in order to forge Lightbringer. Jon's ambition to become as tough as Valyrian steel, is a foreshadowing, as he will become The sword!

It must be noted that Martin likes to subvert some of the prophicies (e.g. Azor Azai will probably be a Princess rather then a Prince). Therefore, i think there is a possibility that it will be Dany who will sacrifuce herself in order to forge Lightbringer.

I am almost certain that one of these scenerio will happen, it is the "bittersweet" ending that was quoted by Martin.

So yes, Jon will become a great fighter. Whether he will become the greatest is really irrelevant.

It is alluded by Ned, Jaime and Barristan that Arthur Dayne is the greatest warrior of his generation. People have said that if he so good, then how can Ned and Howleed Reed defeat him (as these 2 are not the greatest fighters)but.....Howleed Reed has magic to aid him. Reed could have won the tornament at Harrendal, where Rhaegar crowned the Wolfgirl as his love!

hi guys.. this is my first post!!

i agree with the majority of you that jon will be a great swordsman although not for the same reasons. i want to talk about a few things not pertaining to this thread to give my reasons. I think, the way the novels have progressed.. either Dany or Jon is going to be the main character about whom other characters stories are going to revolve. I thnk most will agree with me on this simply because almost every other major character in the series in well beyod 30 years of age..my point being the series

is written primarily for the teenage-adolescent category..After this it comes down to whether GRRM wants a male or a female lead.. it could go either way at the moment..

This said, I think most of you will agree with me that the Azor Azai has to be one among the 2!!simply no two ways abt it.

1. Dany is the Azor azai.. dragons are the lightbringers..no red sword of the heroes.. jon becomes a side character(not telling he wont be significant, but not central to the series). Then definitely he wont be an exceptional sword just a good LC.

2. otoh.. Jon is Azor azai.. we were deliberately misguided by grrm into thinking Dany fulfilled the prophecy beyond a shodow of doubt so early in the series.. and guess what jon gets to weild lightbringer. I think then it becomes a neccesity that he be a legendery sworrdsman.. simply because you wouldnt want the satr attraction to the series to be a below par with a sword.. but bear in mind that no duel so far in the series has been one sided. All were close fought (except when the hero gets to fight rig-rags) by hook or crook u get an equalizer.. so yeah i see a situation where Jon pulvarizes the "regular" others and may be a close run thing with " supreme " other.everyody needs a leader!!

So what do u guys think?? and i havent forgotten about bran.. but i dont think hell be central.. hell be too young even with the 5 yr gap but hell be enormously involved somehow.. HAppy posting guys

[Errant Bard]

1) Ned is outnumbered and taken by surprise, but he reacts quickly enough to kill one of them if I recall correctly and to allow Jory time to get away had Jory not been too loyal to seize his chance.

He is definitely not taken by surprise, he chats a bit, LF has time to skedaddle, Jory has his sword at the ready for minutes, Jaime tells him to unsheathe his sword. And Ned fails to kill even a single guy: he rides one down, he dents a helm but that's all. As I said, wholly unconvincing, especially for someone mounted, with Valyrian steel, against footmen forbidden from harming him.

3) This counts against him but then Bronze Yohn is known as an outstanding fighter, whereas Ned at that time was past his prime. The GreatJon is pretty formidable too (I don't recall him and Ned sparring but I'll take your word for it).

Yohn Royce is older than Ned, so the "past his prime" argument is funny, and from that,even if I don't recall Yohn being described as outstanding, being hammered in the yard hints at a big difference in level.

5) Are you trying to suggest that the Crannogman was a better swordsman than Ned? Any number of things could have happened that wouldn't require good skill with a sword from Howland Reed. After all, Arya arguably saved Sandor in the fight at the inn, but it didn't take skill to step up behind the Tickler and stick him with the pointy end. To me, this fight against 3 members of the Kingsguard is the most telling evidence that Ned has been underrated. When it counted most, he came through - and no one else in that fight did. Howland saved him, true, but there must have been many other times during the fight when the only one parrying swordthrusts against Ned was Ned.

I am suggesting that your whole argument hangs on Ned needing to be an excellent swordsman to survive Arthur Dayne, when Howland Reed survived him too, and wasn't a good fighter, and that you are the one making up the details of the fight so Ned needs to be awesome. It's the same as claiming that the Tickler was a good swordsman because if Arya, like Howland, had stabbed the outnumbered, great swordsman, saving the Tickler, the Tickler would have been one of the two survivors.

[baxus]

It is alluded by Ned, Jaime and Barristan that Arthur Dayne is the greatest warrior of his generation. People have said that if he so good, then how can Ned and Howleed Reed defeat him (as these 2 are not the greatest fighters)but.....Howleed Reed has magic to aid him. Reed could have won the tornament at Harrendal, where Rhaegar crowned the Wolfgirl as his love!

7 on 3, remember?

we don't know who killed which kingsguard and in what order...

maybe all 7 of them swarmed dayne, he killed one or maybe two of them before getting killed...

He is definitely not taken by surprise, he chats a bit, LF has time to skedaddle, Jory has his sword at the ready for minutes, Jaime tells him to unsheathe his sword. And Ned fails to kill even a single guy: he rides one down, he dents a helm but that's all. As I said, wholly unconvincing, especially for someone mounted, with Valyrian steel, against footmen forbidden from harming him.

i'm fairly sure that ned used an ordinary sword when he was attacked in king's landing...

i got the impression that ned didn't carry ice around at all times, but only at 'special occasions'

[Errant Bard]

i'm fairly sure that ned used an ordinary sword when he was attacked in king's landing...

i got the impression that ned didn't carry ice around at all times, but only at 'special occasions'

Right, we never saw him prepare, but during the fight they only speak of Ned's "longsword". I was mistaken.

[Jackals Justice]

Right, we never saw him prepare, but during the fight they only speak of Ned's "longsword". I was mistaken.

I would assume Ned was slightly above average. Although I wouldn't hinge too much of his skills on the 7-3 battle, it does sound as if it was hard fought though. So I always assume he at least traded blows in that fight. But certainly his main strength hinged on his tactical abilities, rather than any extraordinary ability with the sword alone. Ned was well trained, but didn't have the ability the likes of jaime or sandor do, although, in fights of importance, I would put my money on Ned to be the victor.

You also don't get the impression Ned cared much either. A fighter like Jaime takes pride in his abilities, works to hone them, is bothered by being less than average. Whereas Ned is the exact opposite. The greatest fighters seem to have ability to start with to be sure, but without the want to turn it into something great, they wouldn't have been much either.

This feeling lends credence to Jon becoming a swordsman on the level of Jaime or Sandor. He has natural ability as is shown in aGoT, while also having the drive and desire to become better. A leader of the nights watch he may be, but I find it difficult to believe Jon won't be spending a large amount of time practicing. I mean, is becoming a great fighter, or perhaps an astounding fighter a hindrance as commander of the nights watch? would him not being astounding only serve the nights watches ends?

I see him having a fight equal to the 7-3 on his hands.. at some point it will come down to that for him. Maybe not of course, but I certainly think so.

[Bastard of Winterfell]

@A Jackal's justice

Yes I wouldn't be surprised if Jon didn't spend much of his time on swordplay. The reason i say this is because not oly have we learnt from AFFC that he has been doing just htat..but also the fact that Sam revealed to him that Others are vulnerable to dragonsteel which Jon concludes is the same as valyrian steel. As one of the few members with immediate access to valyrian steel at the wall it would be highly foolish of him to neglect his sword training. He might even make a difference in a tight situation.

[Bellis]

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