What Dorne really got from Daeron II

[Aemond's Eye]

I don't recall many legitimized bastards of real monarchs being referred to as Prince unless they actually ended up as the heir presumptive or heir apparent. Most would be granted minor lands and titles, and some - depending on various factors - greater lands and titles. And it seems that Daemon, Aegor and Brynden - not sure about Balerion - were granted minor lands; these lands just haven't been mentioned as they're not integral to the story. (Plus it could just be that Daemon hadn't completed the building of his keep on land near the Blackwater, though I can't recall offhand if it was built.) In terms of his illegitimate daughters, four were septas and another two were in the same boat as Balerion - no pun intended - which just leaves Shiera, and it's possible she was granted minor lands too, or lived on Brynden's at times.

[Lord Varys]

There are no Targaryen bastards known who were granted the title 'prince' after they were legitimized. And there is no reason to assume the Great Bastards would have been different - especially not them - as the establishment (especially the royal family) wasn't really happy with the whole thing anyway, and would thus not have addressed the bastards with those honorifics even if Aegon's decree had granted it.

The Baratheon brothers not being princes after Robert's ascension is weird, though. Bran also becomes a prince upon Robb's coronation and he was not the son of a king, either. The grandchildren of kings are styled princes throughout the series (Viserys, Daemon, Rhaenys; Egg and his brothers as well as their cousins).

It may be that things are different if you are descended from the king through the female line only (compare it to the daughter of Princess Anne, who has no title at all, if I'm not mistaken) but if this is the case then it is not mentioned. But it could explain why Steffon and his sons aren't princes. Gyldayn does also not style Laenor Velaryon 'prince' and if I remember correctly then Rhaenyra's sons by Laenor are also not princes in TRP and TPatQ.

[Aemond's Eye]

I think you hit the nail on the head with 'honorific' - a lot of princes and princesses in the series are styled as such as honorific.

The only reason I can think of for the Baratheon brothers not being styled as such is that they were lords in their own right, and the royal dynasty was seen as being of Robert's line, rather than Steffon's. They would only be honorific princes, and being a lord trumps that.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

I can't fault any of that reasoning, it's all very sensible.

But the point about what the "establishment" interpretation was (you get legitimacy and nothing else), versus what a Blackfyre interpretation might be (we are legitimate now, meaning we are the same as trueborn), is really the key here.

We are seeing Daemon BF piece together a legitimate claim to the throne, hanging his hat on every hook he has (his Targ looks, his prowess, the sword) - so that says a couple of things: (1) this IS a fight over whose claim to the throne is less tainted by questions of legitimacy, and (2) any scrap of legitimacy was important (which, being the case, begs the question of why he created the name Blackfyre if he was already Daemon Targaryen; he could have had the sword and the name, but instead he willingly ditched the name and only has the sword?)

Who was born how and to whom is going to be a question worth considering, and by the time Daenerys is given to Maron, this is well understood - there is a legion of legitimised bastards, and a king whose own legitimacy is suspect. It's not a theoretical proposition.

As for the real world comparisons: my point way above was that, again, the situation wasn't clear. Morganatic marriages were created specifically to allow for children to be legitimate but not in the line of succession, for example. The two (legitimacy and succession) are not mutually interchangeable.

The Pragmatic Sanction in the 1700s allowed Maria Theresa to claim the Habsburg lands as the daughter of the last Archduke, which she should not have been able to under Salic Law. But her father got everyone to agree to this in advance (he also put his daughters ahead of his elder brother's daughters, which was controversial). Then lots of people reneged on the pledge to support MT. Unlike Rhaenyra though, MT won her claim. But it was a claim that only decades before would have been little more than useless - as is any claim by or through a female under Salic law.

And Salic Law itself was not a "real thing" - it was largely invented on the spot to stop the throne of France passing to England. It happened that the claim was through Isabella of France, so the French conveniently "remembered" that women can't inherit the throne or pass on their claim.

So in both cases, it was entirely pragmatic, meaning context is everything. And in the context of Daeron "whose son is he anyway" and Daemon "born a bastard", the value of Daenerys "everything above board" is immeasurable.

[Lord Varys]

Well, but princes who are lords in their own right seem to prefer the princely title. For instance, Maekar and all the other Princes of Summerhall are styled as such although at the time when they hold that castle they are essentially the Lords of Summerhall as a lordship comes with the castle, and Maekar - and whoever he gave the castle after he became king - were most likely originally destined to inherit and hand it to their descendants rather than give it back to the Crown when they ascend the Iron Throne (like it is done with Dragonstone).

If Maekar prefers to prefer the Prince of Summerhall then Stannis should also be the Prince of Dragonstone rather than its Lord (in opposition to the Targaryen tradition not the Heir Apparent, though), and Renly should be the Prince of Storm's End rather than its lord. In fact, that would greatly illustrate his power as a great lord as well as his status as the king's brother. There are so many lords in the Realm but only in Dorne and in KL there are princes. Thus 'prince' should really be the more prestigious title.

Daemon the Younger is called 'Your Grace' and is clearly the Blackfyre king for those present at Whitewalls who are in the Blackfyre camp. But we have yet to learn whether the Blackfyres who were not pretenders to the Iron Throne considered themselves and styled themselves princes. It may be, but if this was the case I'd bet that they only used those titles after their father had crowned himself. It is very unlikely that Daemon Blackfyre was ever styled 'Prince Daemon' at the court of Daeron II.

[Aemond's Eye]

Was Summerhall really a proper Lordship though? It's referred to as being a lightly fortified palace and summer residence. I took Maekar being Prince of Summerhall as a courtesy more than anything, as Maekar remained there after leaving King's Landing during Aerys' reign. It seems like another honorific title to me. That and something that was a play on Prince of Dragonstone, but if it wasn't a proper lordship and it was a Prince's residence, 'Prince of....' would just be honorific.

[Lord Varys]

Maekar was already Prince of Summerhall before his father died (in THK). He also lived there at that time (Egg and Daeron travel from Summerhall to Ashford, and Maekar asks Dunk to train Egg there). It is not a fortified castle, but Daeron II gave it to Maekar as a gift to him and his heirs. I doubt he did not add at least some lands, or else Maekar would have been dependent on whatever royal monies the Crown were granting him and/or would have to buy food from foreign lords and peasants/merchants that were not living on his land. That does not sound right.

I imagine Summerhall became a proper lordship with quite a bit of land after the Redgrass Field - before that, it would indeed only have been a summer castle without all that much land. We know that quite a lot of Marcher Lords were among the Blackfyre loyalists, and I'd imagine that Daeron II took lands from them and added them to the Summerhall domains when he gave the castle to Maekar - which he could also have done around that time as a reward for Maekar's service during the First Blackfyre Rebellion.

[Aemond's Eye]

Good points.

With the brothers Baratheon I'd fall back on the royal line being seen as Robert's. It's a grey area as he won the throne by conquest and his claim through the Targaryens that shored it up also applies to his brothers. So if Rhaelle is cited as Robert's claim then Stannis and Renly could be styled as Prince, in theory. I'd imagine it's either something that GRRM didn't think about too much, or neither man wanted to style himself as such. (Though Renly does seem like he would.)

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

There's a great bit of Baratheon propaganda in TWOIAF on that point, when Yandel says that the Targaryen family tree had been whittled down "to just two lonely branches" - the main KL branch, and the Baratheons. This is clearly trying to reverse-engineer some legitimacy, since if we're counting female line descendants, the Martells should be a branch of the Targs (and also probably the Tarths).

But we know they don't count female line descendants. Except of course when it would be quite handy for someone to do just that.

[Aemond's Eye]

Well, it's referring to the actual House Targaryen - so mentioning Targaryen descendants in other Houses wouldn't really make much sense, especially when you're trying to show to Robert that his claim was the strongest. It's cleverly worded, as it doesn't state that there were few claimants - just that the noble branches of the Targaryen family tree were few. Technically, House Baratheon isn't being referred to as one of the few branches left there either.

[Lord Varys]

Problem with the Baratheons is also that the heirs presumptive - Bran in Robb's case, and Shireen in Stannis' case - are immediately promoted to 'prince(ss)' after their brother/father crowns himself. Considering that Robert's immediate heirs upon his own coronation were Stannis and Renly they should have become princes, too. And once they were princes there is simply no reason to demote them to 'lord' again afterwards when Robert marries and Cersei delivers Joffrey. Just because Viserys I had heirs of his own body did Prince Daemon not lose his princely status - and he was only the grandson and brother of a king, just as Stannis and Renly were brothers and great-grandsons of a king.

And Robert's claim/royal blood does not come from his warhammer. It comes from Aegon V, through Princess Rhaelle, and his father, Lord Steffon. That much is clear by now. The main branch of House Baratheon is royal because they are descendants of Aegon V. Robert's line is cadet branch of House Targaryen.

Which essentially means that Shireen and Tommen/Myrcella's heirs aren't distant Baratheon kin (i.e. descendants of Ormund or Lyonel Baratheon's siblings/cousins) but other Targaryen cousins through the female line (if we take the Baratheon POV and consider Dany and Aegon to be attainted/disinherited).

Next in line after Shireen and Tommen/Myrcella may actually be Selwyn Tarth followed by Brienne (if Rhae, Vaella, and Maegor did not leave any surviving offspring, and Daenora did not wed again after Aerion's death). After that would come the Martells and then the Penroses (if there are still any descendants of Elaena and Ronnel Penrose), and the Plumms.

This actually makes the idea of 'Queen Brienne' not as outlandish as one might think. If she ends up at the court of a Targaryen pretender she may officially be named heir, marry into the royal family, and end up on throne in a Claudius-like fashion. Wouldn't that be neat?

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

I think that's exactly what it's referring to: it's talking about the time in the lead up to Robert's Rebellion, and the official family tree shows only Aerys II's line and the Baratheon line (through Egg's daughter). It does say "just two lonely branches", so it's definitely referring to the Baratheons as a "branch".

As I said, this is just propaganda, a gloss over Robert's conquest.

[Lord Varys]

It seems as if the line of Aegon V had only two branches left after Summerhall, yes, Jaehaerys/Shaera-Aerys/Rhaella-Rhaegar and Steffon (and Rhaelle, if his mother survived Summerhall).

But there is a small possibility that Duncan and Jenny had unknown children and not all of them died at Summerhall. The phrase 'noble branches' could suggest as much although I'm not all that sure that this is actually the case.

[Aemond's Eye]

I forgot when the reference to the branches was, aye.

If Aerion's son - or descendants, depending on bastards and/or grandchildren - lived then there's more to the 'tree' of House Targaryen than the lines of Aerys & Rhaelle and Steffon. But again, the propaganda there would be to ignore the claims of Aerion's descendants.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

I suppose there is a sliver of logic there, if you focus only on Aegon V's descendants - on the basis that he was chosen by the Great Council, which choice kind of placed all previous potential heirs out in the cold.

That would be helpful in nullifying claims by Aerion's line as well, as long as Aegon V has living descendants.

Whether it holds any water is another thing, but that's what propaganda is I guess.

[Aemond's Eye]

Easier to ignore the claim than make that argument, as Aerion's line had the stronger claim than Aegon's to start with. In that respect ignoring it serves the purpose.

That's assuming Maegor wasn't dead or presumed dead by then.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Anyway.

This all started because of my argument that giving Daenerys to Maron (instead of to, I don't know, maybe Baelor Breakspear??) was a much bigger giveaway than is apparently made out to be. In the context of everything Dorne is getting out of this deal, this concession makes Daeron II's dealings with them look even more suspect. Daenerys could have bolstered the main Targaryen line with her undoubted parentage by having Breakspear's sons, but was instead given to Dorne, in a second marriage with the Martells...

[Aemond's Eye]

And Daeron gains no alliance from marrying Baelor to Daenerys; instead Baelor weds a girl from a powerful marcher house, and Daenerys seals the alliance with the Martells. Daeron does not underestimate her value; marrying her to a great house shows this. He's just aware that she is behind his line and most likely the lines of his brothers'; she was not close to being the heir, so it wasn't a high risk.

Daeron had no need to pander to those who whispered about Baelor's appearance anyway - they were the same folk who pandered to Aegon IV by calling Naerys an adultress and Daeron a bastard. Nothing Daeron could do would sway them, as they didn't wanr a bookish, just king. He instead arranged smart marriages for his sons and for his sister.

[VVSINGOFTHECROSS]

Anyway.

This all started because of my argument that giving Daenerys to Maron (instead of to, I don't know, maybe Baelor Breakspear??) was a much bigger giveaway than is apparently made out to be. In the context of everything Dorne is getting out of this deal, this concession makes Daeron II's dealings with them look even more suspect. Daenerys could have bolstered the main Targaryen line with her undoubted parentage by having Breakspear's sons, but was instead given to Dorne, in a second marriage with the Martells...

I have always wondered this, how could Daemon claim Daeron II was a bastard and yet somehow ignore the fact that would that not mean his beloved Daenerys was one as well? UNless Naerys somehow slept with Aemon to produce Daeron, and then nearly killed herself bringing in Aegon's daughter.

[Aemond's Eye]

Daenerys' paternity was never in doubt, for whatever reason. Presumably because the questions over Daeron's were just slander.