A 20 Year Gap in Harrenhal

[Hashasheen]

I was just looking at Harrenhal's wiki page, and I just saw this...

Houses to have held Harrenhal

• House Qoherys held Harrenhal from 1 AC - 37 AC, wiped out by Harren the Red.
  
• House Harroway held Harrenhal from 37 AC - 44 AC, killed by King Maegor I Targaryen.
  
• House Towers held Harrenhal from 44 AC - unknown, died out two generations later.
  
• House Strong held Harrenhal from unknown - 131 AC, last of the line executed by Lord Cregan Stark.
  
• House Lothston held Harrenhal from 151 AC - unknown, line was brought down in the reign of King Maekar I Targaryen.
  
• House Whent held Harrenhal for three generations. Lady Shella Whent surrendered Harrenhal in 298 AC to the forces of Lord Tywin Lannister.
  
• House Slynt held Harrenhal for a short period of time in 299 AC.
  
• House Baelish has held Harrenhal since 299 AC.
  

Who the hell was ruling Harrenhal for 20 years? We know House Targaryen gave it to Lucas Lothston (which is weird, considering that should be something House Tully had right to decide), so did they hold it? Also, if they did hold it for 20 years, why didn't they ever just pull it down, or move it, or make it a cadet branch, etc...

[RumHam]

It seems like nobody held it during those years. It's very expensive to maintain, and had been burnt again. After the war I guess nobody had the money and it wasn't a priority. Also the winter that started right after the war probably would have prevented building for however long it lasted.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

I would say that during that 20 year gap, Harrenhal belonged to the Crown. I'd say that there's a pretty good chance that, even though House Tully are (or were) the rulers of the riverlands, Harrenhal was not theirs to give. What we do know about the place seems to indicate that it reverts to the crown when there is no heir. Aegon I conquered Harrenhal himself and, although he gave lordship of the Riverlands to Edmyn Tully, Harrenhal was given to Quenton Qoherys, the former master-at-arms of Dragonstone. Presumably it would be Aegon who would have given Harrenhal to Lord Qoherys, rather than Edmyn Tully who wouldn't even know the guy. We know for a fact that Maegor was responsible for granting Harrenhal to House Towers after extinguished House Harroway. We also know that the Lothstons were granted Harrenhal by Aegon III. Of course we also see the crown grant Harrenhal twice in the main series, but that happens with the Tullys in rebellion so might not be relevant. All of this seems to be consistent with the idea that Harrenhal was (at least in part) directly under the crown. This might be similar to Pennytree which is referred to in the text as a "royal fief"

[RumHam]

I might be wrong but I don't think there's any indication that Lords Paramount can raise someone to lordship and grant them lands. Maybe in Dorne.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Littlefinger grants the Gates of the Moon to Nestor Royce in his capacity as Lord Protector of the Vale, doesn't he? Now, that might involve some sort of royal approval, I don't know or remember. Most of what we see in the series with seats and lands being granted, however, takes place in the context of an ongoing civil war/rebellion so I'm not sure we can draw much precedent from it. Still, we see with the Blackwood/Bracken dispute when Lord Blackwood surrenders that he can decide which lands to give up to Lord Bracken and that, although the crown is ultimately in charge of what's going on, he lacks any sort of authority over Pennytree.

While there likely is some sort of royal approval necessary when it comes to giving lands and titles, there's really no indications that the Tullys played any sort of role when it came to deciding who got Harrenhal

[joluoto2]

My guess is that the Crown controlled Harrenhal 131-151 AC (that or no one held it).

[RumHam]

Littlefinger grants the Gates of the Moon to Nestor Royce in his capacity as Lord Protector of the Vale, doesn't he? Now, that might involve some sort of royal approval, I don't know or remember. Most of what we see in the series with seats and lands being granted, however, takes place in the context of an ongoing civil war/rebellion so I'm not sure we can draw much precedent from it. Still, we see with the Blackwood/Bracken dispute when Lord Blackwood surrenders that he can decide which lands to give up to Lord Bracken and that, although the crown is ultimately in charge of what's going on, he lacks any sort of authority over Pennytree.

While there likely is some sort of royal approval necessary when it comes to giving lands and titles, there's really no indications that the Tullys played any sort of role when it came to deciding who got Harrenhal

That's right he does, forgot about that one. Still I think the situation is a little different as the Gates of the Moon belonged to House Arryn, so they were (sorta) his to give. I'm pretty sure every time someone loses their lands they revert to the crown. House Osgrey for example, the deal is that if Eustace dies without an heir Standfast reverts to the crown, not to the Tyrells.

[Lord Varys]

Harrenhal was certainly in direct possession of the Crown after the Dance as both Aemond and Daemon both (repeatedly) conquered the castle.

It is thus no surprise that Aegon III grants it to Lucas Lothston. I'd actually not be surprised if there were thoughts before to grant Harrenhal to Viserys and his heir, Aegon, as Aegon III surely would have wanted have wanted his brother to have a huge seat of his own if Aegon's sons continued the royal line.

As to granting seats:

I imagine lords can give away their own seats, but not grant a lordship to a commoner without the approval/permission of the Crown. And if a line dies out the castle and its lands seem to revert always to the Crown, not to the lord paramount. The Lords Paramount a ruling a region in the king's name, but they themselves hold their own lands, seats, and titles as fiefs from the Crown, not as their own possession. If the North, for instance, belonged the Starks who granted fiefs and land, then the Iron Throne would not actually rule over it as the Starks would effectively still be kings.

If a lord paramount line would die out the seat/holdings would also revert back to the Crown, and the Iron Throne would decide whether to grant the seat to some distant cousin or name a new Lord Paramount from a different house. The distant relatives could not just come up to, say, Winterfell and proclaim themselves the new Lords of Winterfell without royal permission.