Ahai Ahoy Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Who will Hodor, warged by Bran, fight? Because I'm bored. Serious point: Bran is a bad boy for body-snatching Hodor. As some have stated it is akin to rape, or even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ McLannister Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Nobody? Maybe Bloodraven, but that seems like it would be pretty one-sided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuncle Karstark Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Who will Hodor, warged by Bran, fight? Because I'm bored. Serious point: Bran is a bad boy for body-snatching Hodor. As some have stated it is akin to rape, or even worse.Akin to rape?Slavery is far more accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eiko Dragonhorn Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Probably not anyone. Bran in Cold-Jon might fight some people though. Bran is just fine. Hodor just gets scared of everything - food, animals, lightning, etc. Summer likes being skinchanged just fine so it's probably enjoyable as long as it's a temporary situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahai Ahoy Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 Akin to rape? Slavery is far more accurate. It's an invasion of one's body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahai Ahoy Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 Probably not anyone. Bran in Cold-Jon might fight some people though. Bran is just fine. Hodor just gets scared of everything - food, animals, lightning, etc. Summer likes being skinchanged just fine so it's probably enjoyable as long as it's a temporary situation. Um, would you like it if someone, even a 'nice' person, stole your body? Just because Hodor is a retard, doesn't make it ok. Only direwolves are cool with skinchanging because of the special connection. Even other animals aren't cool with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eiko Dragonhorn Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Um, would you like it if someone, even a 'nice' person, stole your body? Sure, if I was friends was someone and they could do it I'd totally try it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ McLannister Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 There's definitely some moral ambiguity. Hodor doesn't give Bran permission, and can't give permission, but if he could, maybe he would. If Hodor is capable of emotional attachment, I'd say that he would consider Bran a friend. Now, if Bran enters into Hodor's mind and makes him do things that he would normally be unwilling to do, I think there would be more of a problem with that. So far he's really just used Hodor's body to explore, which is probably what Hodor would be doing anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuncle Karstark Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 Probably not anyone. Bran in Cold-Jon might fight some people though. Bran is just fine. Hodor just gets scared of everything - food, animals, lightning, etc. Summer likes being skinchanged just fine so it's probably enjoyable as long as it's a temporary situation.But Hodor cannot give consent. It's not okay to force yourself on a human unable to communicate their wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuncle Karstark Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 It's an invasion of one's body.So is surgery. Again, slavery has far more similarities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ McLannister Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 A slave can refuse. It might mean death, but there is a choice. A puppet cannot disobey the puppeteer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuncle Karstark Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 A slave can refuse. It might mean death, but there is a choice. A puppet cannot disobey the puppeteer.It's not a perfect analogy, but it is better than rape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eiko Dragonhorn Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 But Hodor cannot give consent. It's not okay to force yourself on a human unable to communicate their wishes. The first few times Bran does it is to save lives, including Hodor's. Have you ever worked with mentally disabled people? Caretakers frequently have to force them to eat and do other things for their own health. Of course ideally Bran would refrain from skinchanging Hodor when it's not necessary as Hodor doesn't seem to enjoy it - but Bran is only 9 years old and is still fairly justifying his skinchanging as protection for Jojen & Meera. Not sure how people expect a 9 year old to know something is wrong when as far as he knows (Summer) it's perfectly enjoyable and Hodor can't communicate a deviation (if there even is one) properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BricksAndSparrows Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 It's an invasion of one's body. What if Brodor rapes Bran while he is mind raping Hodor. It's like a house of mirrors...rape mirrors. Brodor has already done some fighting, But I'm not sure Hodor will escape the cave. That just wouldn't be complicated enough... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuncle Karstark Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 The first few times Bran does it is to save lives, including Hodor's. Have you ever worked with mentally disabled people? Caretakers frequently have to force them to eat and do other things for their own health. Of course ideally Bran would refrain from skinchanging Hodor when it's not necessary as Hodor doesn't seem to enjoy it - but Bran is only 9 years old and is still fairly justifying his skinchanging as protection for Jojen & Meera. Not sure how people expect a 9 year old to know something is wrong when as far as he knows (Summer) it's perfectly fine and Hodor can't communicate it properly.I don't really see doing something to preserve someone's life as comparable to taking over their mind.Of course, I don't blame Bran for doing it during necessary situations, but it is certainly not morally right, even then. Using Hodor to explore when he is clearly unhappy is evidently wrong. Apparent even to a 9 year old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahai Ahoy Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 The first few times Bran does it is to save lives, including Hodor's. Have you ever worked with mentally disabled people? Caretakers frequently have to force them to eat and do other things for their own health. Of course ideally Bran would refrain from skinchanging Hodor when it's not necessary as Hodor doesn't seem to enjoy it - but Bran is only 9 years old and is still fairly justifying his skinchanging as protection for Jojen & Meera. Not sure how people expect a 9 year old to know something is wrong when as far as he knows (Summer) it's perfectly enjoyable and Hodor can't communicate a deviation (if there even is one) properly. When Bran does it in desperate situations to save their lives, it can probably be justified since he leaves Hodor immediately after the danger has passed. But, when he wargs Hodor in the caves, he is just doing it so he can go off and explore and have an adventure. I can understand that with his paralysis, he is tempted to take control of Hodor, but this does not justify this very dark act. Bran can feel Hodor fearfully cowering in some dark corner of his mind. Hodor does not need Bran to help him eat or anything like that. Hodor is actually Bran's carer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ McLannister Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 The first few times Bran does it is to save lives, including Hodor's. Have you ever worked with mentally disabled people? Caretakers frequently have to force them to eat and do other things for their own health. Of course ideally Bran would refrain from skinchanging Hodor when it's not necessary as Hodor doesn't seem to enjoy it - but Bran is only 9 years old and is still fairly justifying his skinchanging as protection for Jojen & Meera. Not sure how people expect a 9 year old to know something is wrong when as far as he knows (Summer) it's perfectly enjoyable and Hodor can't communicate a deviation (if there even is one) properly. Yeah, but if he decides he's going to start using Hodor to, for example, kill his enemies or... other things that I've seen suggested but would rather not say... then I could see it as more of a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BricksAndSparrows Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 All joking aside. It's just a book and I get that. Bran is doing it for good and I get that too, but taking over someone in that way is worse than rape. At the end of the day, our individualty is really all we have, so the concept of seizing control of someones person, stuffing their consciousness aside, and doing as they please would be a horrendous violation of a person. BTW: I'm always in awe of GRRM's foreshadowing ability. It is great how Bran asks Maester Lewyn if he coud ever be a Knight, riding on Hodor's back. And Lewyn tells him how that could never be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename: Nymeria Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 I don't think it's so impossible that Hodor can, and possibly does, consent to being warged. Bran can sense Summer's moods and thoughts when warging him; just because Hodor can't say anything other then "Hodor" doesn't mean he's incapable of at least mildly complex thought. He's certainly physically capable of abandoning Bran, whether or not he can do so mentally. I agree if that if Hodor doesn't want to be warged, it's a clear invasion of who he is, I just think there's more ambiguity to it than that. Does Summer consent to letting Bran enter his mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigpiginsunspear Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 All joking aside. It's just a book and I get that. Bran is doing it for good and I get that too, but taking over someone in that way is worse than rape. At the end of the day, our individualty is really all we have, so the concept of seizing control of someones person, stuffing their consciousness aside, and doing as they please would be a horrendous violation of a person. BTW: I'm always in awe of GRRM's foreshadowing ability. It is great how Bran asks Maester Lewyn if he coud ever be a Knight, riding on Hodor's back. And Lewyn tells him how that could never be. Very true. Bran only wargs Hodor when has too (I think? Can anyone think of a time when he didn't?). The wildlings think it is an abomination to do so, for good reason. Perhaps it is because Bran is young, but he has been a bit too casual about warging another human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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