house of dayne Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Just a quick question...if bastards are given names which reflect their kingdom of birth, why is jon jon snow and not jon sand if he was born at the tower of joy or starfall...i recall robert had a bastard in the vale and her name was stone not storm so it seems not to have to do with the father in question...is ned implying to all the world that jon was born in the north? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Bastards are named for where they grow up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattenhoofd Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I think it matters which kingdom the father comes from, not where the birth takes place. It wouldn't make sense that a Northern bastard would be named Snow, except if it happened to be born during a fishing trip in the Reach or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 1 minute ago, Victarion Chainbreaker said: Bastards are named for where they grow up. Basically -- this. Generally only recognized bastards with at least one noble parent gets one of these names (Gendry was not recognized and thus did not get such a last name at all -- he is just Gendry and not Gendry Waters). Some people have suggested that the name is based on where the child is born or where the noble parent is from. It seems fairly obvious, however, that these suggestions are incorrect. Clearly the name is NOT based on where the noble parent is from, as Robert's recognized bastards have different last names (one is Stone and one is Waters). Similarly, the location of birth is not relevant either -- as Jon Snow demonstrates -- everyone knows he was not born in the North. VC is correct. Looking at the bastards from the series that have one of these last names -- in each case it appears that the name is based on where the bastard was raised -- which often, but not always, also is where the bastard was born. But where there is a difference, as with Jon Snow, the place where he is raised and not the place of birth is what is relevant. And again, the place where the noble parent is from clearly is irrelevant or Robert could not have had a child with the last name Stone -- and we know he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
house of dayne Posted February 12, 2016 Author Share Posted February 12, 2016 Do you know any other bastard with a name that contradicted his or her birthplace...?..presumably bastards get their name at birth or soon there after.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veloknight Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 19 minutes ago, Rattenhoofd said: I think it matters which kingdom the father comes from, not where the birth takes place. It wouldn't make sense that a Northern bastard would be named Snow, except if it happened to be born during a fishing trip in the Reach or whatever. Nope. See Rivers, Brynden; and Stone, Mya. They're customarily named for the region they're most associated with. Jon was born to a Northern father (mother), and raised as the Bastard of Winterfell - hence, he's Jon Snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 4 minutes ago, house of dayne said: Do you know any other bastard with a name that contradicted his or her birthplace...?..presumably bastards get their name at birth or soon there after.. We don't really get that much information about each such bastard -- and in the vast majority of cases there won't be a difference between where the child was born and where raised. But EVERYONE knows that Jon was not born in the North -- but no one questions that he should be called Jon Snow. Now -- I admit that the wiki is not "canon" but here is what the wiki says on the subject (spoiler alert -- it basically agrees with me -- I have added bold to the relevant reference regarding where the bastard is raised): Each of the nine constituent regions of the Seven Kingdoms have bastard surnames decreed by custom, not law.[5] Bastards with a high-born parent are given these surnames to hold them apart from their fathers' houses. The parents may give a bastard a different surname if they wish, e.g. Tyrion Tanner. Bastards with no known relation to a noble house have no surname, like other smallfolk. Region Surname Example Crownlands Waters Aurane Waters Dorne Sand Nymeria Sand Iron Islands Pyke Wex Pyke North Snow Jon Snow Reach Flowers Robert Flowers Riverlands Rivers Walder Rivers Stormlands Storm Rolland Storm Vale of Arryn Stone Mya Stone Westerlands Hill Joy Hill As the surname is applied depending on the region where the bastard is raised, bastards who are half-siblings may have different surnames. For example, King Robert I Baratheon's eldest bastard, born in the Vale, is called Mya Stone while his bastard from the stormlands is called Edric Storm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattenhoofd Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Ah yes, I see I was wrong in thinking they are named for where their father comes from. Though after researching a bit, I'm also doubting they are named for the region where they grow up. Bastard surnames seem to be a goddamn free-for-all, some of them choosing their own name, making up their own name, etc. There don't seem to be any rules or guidelines for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 1 minute ago, Rattenhoofd said: Ah yes, I see I was wrong in thinking they are named for where their father comes from. Though after researching a bit, I'm also doubting they are named for the region where they grow up. Bastard surnames seem to be a goddamn free-for-all, some of them choosing their own name, making up their own name, etc. There don't seem to be any rules or guidelines for it. There is no "law" governing -- so there is freedom to deviate from convention. But the normal convention appears fairly clear -- the child gets the traditional region name based on where he or she is raised -- not where born or where noble parent is from. But because it is custom and not law - there are exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattenhoofd Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 1 minute ago, UnmaskedLurker said: There is no "law" governing -- so there is freedom to deviate from convention. But the normal convention appears fairly clear -- the child gets the traditional region name based on where he or she is raised -- not where born or where noble parent is from. But because it is custom and not law - there are exceptions. It does not seem to me to be followed widely enough to be called a custom or convention, but that's just semantics I guess. I always thought the rule was that the father's kingdom decided the name and am glad to have learned that there's no rule to it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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