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UnmaskedLurker

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About UnmaskedLurker

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    A former Lurker in a Mask

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  1. UnmaskedLurker

    [Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

    The bolded statement of yours is a common misconception regarding that issue. Here Maester Aemon is speaking in the passage from A Feast for Crows that generated that misunderstanding: "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger." From the bolded language in this passage, it is clear that the issue is that DRAGONS have no gender -- not that High Valyrian does not account for gender. The implication is that the original High Valyrian prophecy was about the "Dragon" that was promised, and "Dragon" -- clearly being used as a metaphor for a human being -- was translated to mean "prince" when it could just as easily mean "princess" given that a dragon has no gender. But we have been told that valonqar is High Valyrian for younger brother (see A Feast for Crows, Cersei IX). There is no reason to believe that valonqar really means younger sibling or that High Valyarian never distinguishes gender. While dragons have no gender, presumably, High Valyrian, like virtually every language ever spoken (real or invented) likely distinguishes for gender. In addition, here is the relevant part of the prophecy which was not given in High Valyrian (other than use of the word "valonqar"): "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you." Notice the use of the pronoun "his" when maggy the frog tells the prophecy. She is speaking in the "common tongue" (again, other than the use of the word "valonqar") which certainly has gender and uses the pronoun "he" to describe Cersei's killer. So the books make the issue fairly unambiguous that Cersei will be killed by a younger brother -- which I think only makes sense as Cersei's younger brother (although I understand the arguments to the contrary that it could be anyone's younger brother, but I am not convinced by these arguments). Cersei is convince that Tyrion is her killer, which means that there really is only one plausible candidate -- Jaime (her "other" younger brother). Whether the show will be true to the books in this regard, I cannot be certain, but Jaime leaving WF and heading toward KL to deal with the situation seems to be fairly strong foreshadowing in this direction.
  2. UnmaskedLurker

    [Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

    @Suzanna Stormborn-- While I agree with you (and I doubt that Jon is going to kill Dany), logical consistency does not seem to be a principle that binds D&D. Dramatic action and shock value seem more important to them than inherent coherence in the development of the plot.
  3. UnmaskedLurker

    [Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

    @Lord Varys and @Jô Maltese-- I usually do not use too many "brain cells" trying to unravel what will happen when we will know for sure in less than three weeks. But my gut instinct is to agree with LV that the final WTF moment for D&D very well could be Jaime killing Cersei (which is probably more "shocking" than Stannis killing Shireen, given the nature of the two relationships). As to Sansa winning it all -- I have a hard time seeing that outcome. The name of Martin's series is A Song of Ice and Fire. IMHO, that means that the "story" is about Jon (being the key merger of Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar)) -- or perhaps about Jon and Dany (with Jon merely representing the "dominant ice" aspect of his Stark identity). I just don't see Martin having the story resolve itself with Sansa turning out to be the "main" character in the end. But maybe who takes control is not really that important to Martin, as so she can "win" and still not be considered the "main" character. Again -- I don't really know and we will all know at least how D&D resolve the issues soon. As to whether Martin has intended to end everything the same way, we may never know (or if we do, it looks like it will be at least another 10 years or so).
  4. UnmaskedLurker

    [Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

    @Lord Varys-- I know that you think that D&D have consciously decided to dump all of Martin's notes. I simply disagree. I think that whenever they are interviewed,they suggest that they are sticking to Martin to the extent they can. Regarding the ending, they stated years ago that the ending told to them by Martin was both "bittersweet" and "satisfying" -- I believe they intend to stick to their idea of what that ending can be in this medium. I totally get your point -- I just think in some sense you give D&D too much credit -- you think they perceive the situation as we do (regarding their departure from the source). I think they have convinced themselves they have stuck to the source as much as they can and intend to tell the "same story" as Martin (as delusional as that perception might be).
  5. UnmaskedLurker

    [Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

    @Cas Stark-- I basically agree with your criticism of the show. My posts on this topic regarding the similarities in the endings between the show and the books are not intended as a defense of D&D at all -- just a prediction of what I think they intend to do and think they are doing. I hate that they made a travesty of the prophecies and basically eliminated all of the magical mysticism from the show. I hate that all logic has been stripped from the show. I have enjoyed parts of the show in prior seasons, but so far this season has been an abject failure (IMHO). I hope the final three episodes are more entertaining (even if it is too late to be logical or coherent).
  6. UnmaskedLurker

    [Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

    @Lord Varys-- I think that D&D think they care about Martin's book. I think that they did what they think was their best given the differences in the nature of the media and the lack of the final two (or more) books to fill in the blanks on how to get from point A to Z (much of which Martin has not yet decided). I agree that some of the narrative choices were made because of their perception of the strengths of certain actors and the lack of figuring out how to work in the mysticism and logical story telling in favor of big action and shock value. But with all that at issue -- I think that they THINK they are honoring Martin's story and telling it as closely as they can. You and I might disagree with whether they actually are doing such a thing, but the point is what they seem to think. For example, in one of the inside looks Benioff indicated that only a Targ can ride a dragon. That statement is ridiculous for purposes of the show -- but he seems to think he is being true to the source material in this respect (even though we think he is not). So trying to think like I suspect they think, I believe they will try to keep the ending (as I have defined the ending, which is how I think they define the ending) more or less the same because in their minds, that is the core of what it means to tell Martin's story.
  7. UnmaskedLurker

    [Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

    By major 6-10 characters, I mean, Jon, Dany, Tyrion, the three Stark children, Cersei and Jaime (and maybe one or two others, but primarily those 8). I think which of these 8 lives or dies will be the same. I think that of the survivors, not only who they end up with romantically, but basically where they end up settling and in what position, will be the same. Whether any of that matters is quite subjective. I think that D&D think it matters. I think that when D&D met with GRRM, and he outlined the ending of the series for them, this information was included, and D&D consider this information to be central to the resolution of the series (like in Cinderella, the ending basically no matter what else happens in a particular version of the story is that the Prince finds Cinderella and takes her away from her step-mother and step-sisters and marries her). I am not asserting one way or the other whether any of these resolutions matter -- I am simply making a prediction regarding what I think D&D will keep the same and what they won't bother worrying about being consistent with the books. Of course, I acknowledge there might be some deviations even in these matters (such as maybe Arya goes with Gendry on the show but not the books), but for the most part, I think D&D want to keep to the ending they have been planning since after they met with GRRM to find out how the books are intended to be resolved.
  8. UnmaskedLurker

    [Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

    I think certain things will be the same. Who lives and who dies in the end among the major 6-10 characters likely will be the same. Who ends up with whom and how the 7 kingdoms are ruled likely will be the same in the end. But just about everything else will be different.
  9. UnmaskedLurker

    [Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

    Yes, virtually every "leak" I thought seemed plausible about Ep3 proved to be false. The biggest issue is that I am fairly certain in the books that the big WW battle happens in KL (my recollection is that a famous vision in the books is of of snow falling at the Trident -- which seems to support that theory). I foolishly thought that the show would stick to that plot point, so I kept trying to see how the battle at WF could happen in Ep.3 with enough characters surviving but without a decisive conclusion (the most plausible being that NK did a "fake out" sending much of his troops to WF while he went around to KL). Obviously, all of these "leaks" were wrong (bravo to the leakers). Given how tedious fighting the wights is (IMHO -- unlike most, I found this past episode not particularly interesting -- even though I did love the way that Arya stuck it to the NK), I am glad the show is done with the WW and wights. As noted above, the books (if ever finished) are unlikely to finish off the WW at WF (I also think that the motivations of the WW in the books will be more subtle and interesting that the motive given to them on the show). Hopefully, GRRM eventually will figure out a way to focus his attention on the main series and get the final books done. As to Sansa and Tyrion -- I still find it strange to imagine them together, but maybe (even their "moment" in the crypts seemed rather "forced" to me, but D&D certainly did not want the audience to perceive it as forced).
  10. UnmaskedLurker

    [Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

    @Lord Varys-- I think perhaps the analogy to my point is that after having watched the show, reading the books will be like knowing the final score of a sporting event, and even knowing which players made the plays resulting in the scoring. But of course, knowing these facts about the sporting event is not the same as watching the event, even watching the event knowing these facts. Nevertheless, watching the event knowing these facts is not the same as watching the event without knowing these facts. Which is why some people try very hard not to find out the final score of a sporting event they recorded and want to watch later. I, on the other hand, often enjoy the event more if I know before watching that the team I am rooting for wins -- especially if the team wins big. But either way, watching the event knowing the final score is not the same as watching without know the final score. Knowing the final score, in most people's view, is the same as knowing the ending of the game -- not the same as watching the game from beginning to end -- but the same as knowing how the game ends.
  11. UnmaskedLurker

    [Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

    @Lord Varys-- I think that "basically the same ending" is not just whether the Others (or White Walkers) win or are defeated. I think that the basic manner in or mechanism by which they are defeated may be basically the same. Moreover, what has been emphasized by D&D, I seem to recall, regarding this issue, is that which of the major characters live and die will be the same -- who ends up with whom will be the same -- who rules what will be the same. The outcome for less central characters, apparently, could be quite different. But I think that the 3 remaining Starks, Jon, Tyrion, Dany, and probably Cersei and Jaime will have the same ultimate fates in both mediums. While I agree that the details of the journey matter quite a bit, and while meaningful differences between the two (assuming GRRM ever gets all the books written) will occur, and while the show may "dumb down" certain important plot elements (like the way in which Jon first rides a dragon), many of the basic issues that have been the source of speculation and analysis on the books forums for many years will likely be "spoiled" by the show. Of course, because we can never be sure in what manner D&D deviated, we won't be sure until (and unless) the books are written, we will have a pretty good idea. But I definitely agree that the nature of the emotional journey will be quite different between the two mediums, and in that sense, the endings will be quite different.
  12. UnmaskedLurker

    [Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

    ^^Or GRRM is intentionally misleading the readers to think the ending will be the same so that when it is different, they are even more surprised than they otherwise would be. I am reluctant to take anything he says totally at face value -- but I believe that certain elements of the ending are central to the plot he laid out for himself when he first started writing the series, and I don't think any of those elements will change. Whether D&D actually include all of those elements is another matter, but with respect to the essential outcome of the series, I suspect it will be mostly the same as the books (if GRRM ever writes them, which as others have noted, may never occur).
  13. UnmaskedLurker

    [Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

    @Shmedricko-- Benioff comes across to me in that quote as an idiot for the reasons you outline. If anyone should know about the "rules" of dragonriding, it should be Dany (not Jon), who presumably learned about it from her brother. I understand that Benioff was trying to be funny, but it was still an idiotic comment to suggest that Jon was the one was slow -- Dany would be the one who would be acting foolish by suggesting that a non-Targ should casually try to mount the dragon. Yes, Dany did suggest that Jon might die in the attempt, but she was quite flippant about it and seemed to be comfortable that because the dragon seemed to like Jon that he would have no trouble riding it. And if someone like Varys knows about this "rule" -- he really should have warned Dany so that she did not accidentally kill someone by suggesting they should get on one of the dragons. I enjoy the show -- but the failure to follow basic logic sometimes gets quite annoying.
  14. UnmaskedLurker

    [Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

    While the books take great care in explaining many (although not yet all) of the dangers and nuances of dragonrider and dragonbonding, the show seems to be ignoring all of these issues. Based on Dany's suggestion that Jon should try to ride the dragon without much care, on the show, there must be no "one dragon/one rider" rule, apparently, like there is in the books. Additionally, there does not appear to be the kind of dragonbonding at all. The dragons let Dany ride them because she is their "mother" and they like and trust her. Presumably, Jon is able to ride the dragon because he is close to Dany and she gave her approval. So seeing Jon ride a dragon on the show likely will only prove that Dany likes Jon and thus the dragons like Jon. The books will treat this issue very differently -- as GRRM has fairly clearly made his interest in the intricacies of how someone is able to ride a dragon quite important. The show cares nothing for such complexities.
  15. UnmaskedLurker

    [Book Spoilers] R+L=J, A+J=T and other theories on HBO V.4

    @Lord Varys-- I hope you can clarify one of the points you made regarding Dany and Jon. I agree that Dany and fAegon will likely be a sort of "dance of dragons" conflict, with Dany asserting that he is not the real Aegon (and she will be proven correct, I believe). Eventually, however, Jon and Dany seem destined to have a romance in the books, and eventually RLJ will be revealed in the books. How do you expect Dany to react? She has to have some reaction. It won't be the same as fAegon because she will be in a romantic and strategic alliance with Jon most likely at that point, and she also likely will believe the truth of the revelation, but some drama has to come out of the reveal, doesn't it? On a side note, as to Jon's real name, I think that Lyanna would honor Rhaegar by giving Jon the name that Rhaegar picked out for Jon (rather than naming him Rhaegar). In fact, I don't think that any Targ in the family tree has the same name as his father, so the likelihood of Rhaegar wanting to name Jon as Rhaegar seems quite doubtful. I strongly suspect that name to be Aemon for multiple reasons (discussed in multiple threads in the past on the book forum). The reason that sticks in my head the most, however, is the quote from the original Game of Thrones book from one of Jon's chapters: But he had not left the Wall for that; he had left because he was after all his father's son, and Robb's brother. The gift of a sword, even a sword as fine as Longclaw, did not make him a Mormont. Nor was he Aemon Targaryen. (emphasis added) I think that GRRM's love of irony and textual hints makes it logical that because "Jon Snow knows nothing" he would be wrong here and in fact he IS Aemon Targaryen. I think it is also relevant that a Targ named Aemon never was king before, but of all of the non-king Targs that have been discussed in the books, two of the more prominent were named Aemon (Dragonheart, who by the way was one of the characters Jon like to pretend to be when a child, and Maester) and both were given very positive "edits" by GRRM.
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