The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter - nine iron spikes

[Pain killer Jane]

On 8/5/2016 at 10:01 AM, Tucu said:

I think that the most likely explanation is that the Queen of whores stole the crown before leaving with Ryman and Lady Stoneheart then took it from them. Jamie never thinks of the crown again and he leaves the tent to meet with Edmure.

Another option is that Tom O'Sevens stole the crown from the tent while singing to Edmure.

This has always been my suspicion. 

On 4/16/2016 at 0:48 PM, Seams said:

All I know of the physical description of the crown is the quote in the OP from Catelyn's last POV in AGoT. She is describing something known only from legend, though, so there had to be guesswork involved. And I think it's significant that the crown was made at Riverrun, not in the North. In other words, it's not really a northern crown for a northern king, which may be why Robb's rule was doomed.

You hit the nail on the head with this. This crown is an homage to the real one which I don't think was thrown in the river. I think it is in the Citadel in Old Town. I wrote this in another thread on the crown. 

Quote

I figure it [crown of winter] was part of the royal jewels like the Star of India was a symbol of England's colonization and annexation of India. I do however have an idea of where it might be. During the Dance of the Dragons, Tyland Lannister was entrusted with the Royal Treasury (which the Crown would have been a part of) and was told to hide it. The treasury was split between three places The Iron Bank, Oldtown and Casterly Rock. 

Personally for me, the Lannisters would have used the original crown of winter against Robb if they had it. So I don't think its them. 

Oldtown could perhaps have it especially if the Royal Jewels were entrusted to the Citadel. (Maybe Sam will find it and give it to his friend especially if Robb indeed named Jon his successor.) And the if the description on the crown has the old tongue's rune etched on it then the grey rats Measter's would consider it a valuable artifact and would deem to keep it as a reference piece. Plus I think the Hightowers wouldn't be so honest in returning the Crown Jewels to Aegon III or even the regents. Things get lost especially if Tyland Lannister didn't have accurate record keeping in the haste after Viserys I's death and the start of the Dance.  

The most logical place for the Royal Jewels would be the Iron Bank. However I do not think they are there. Daeron's war in Dorne was in order to recover from the Dance, the Regency (a slight reprieve given by the Rogare Bank) and his father's reign. Therefore I do not think a Bank would return a piece of collateral to a person in debt to them.

For me I am going to think that Oldtown/Citadel has the crown. The Sam connection, the Starry Sept, Aegon III's personality and Meakar I Targaryen's crown which is almost certainly a reference to the crown. 

Plus I would like to add that even though Oldtown is the seat of the Hightower's it is both the seat of the Starry Sept (the 7) and the citadel and as we know from Sam's POVs there is something not right in the Citadel in terms of knowledge acquisition and transmission of knowledge. 

[Pain killer Jane]

8 hours ago, Seams said:

I wonder whether we would see a series of scenes where Jon progresses from the six scarecrows and three real men (including himself) seen here to a growing number of real men until there are nine real heroes fighting together for control of the north?

I had a sneaking suspicion that this could be in relation to the 79 sentinels story. 

Also to go back to the 9 thing. Jon was the 998th commander of the Night's Watch. I wonder if he will be elected again as the 999th commander after he is resurrected. IDK if this relevant or not but a triple nine in police code means officer down. 

[Seams]

I started a different thread to explore whether there is a difference between the Kings of Winter and the Kings in the North. I examined the ways the two different titles are used, but I was still a little stumped about why the Starks or the people of the north had changed the name for their king. One thing that seems consistent is that the bronze crown with nine iron longswords arranged as spikes was the crown of the Kings of Winter. Although Robb is called the King in the North (and the Trident), and he wears a facsimile of the crown, I believe the crown is never called the crown of the Kings in the North.

And then I came across this dialogue between Lord Walder Frey and King Robb when Robb and his bannermen arrive for what will become the Red Wedding:

"Some would say it's a poor king who crowns himself with bronze, Your Grace."

"Bronze and iron are stronger than gold and silver," Robb answered. "The old Kings of Winter wore such a sword-crown."

"Small good it did them when the dragons came. Heh." That heh seemed to please the lackwit, who bobbed his head from side to side, jingling crown and collar. "Sire," Lord Walder said, "forgive my Aegon the noise. He has less wits than a crannogman, and he's never met a king before. One of Stevron's boys. We call him Jinglebell."

(ASoS, Catelyn VI)

This was the only time I had seen the crown called a "sword-crown," and it intrigued me as a possible clue. Eventually I ran it through the anagram website and came up with: crow drowns. Where have we seen a drowned crow? In the dream of the Ghost of High Heart when Lem Lemoncloak and Arya stop in to see her:

"The old gods stir and will not let me sleep," she heard the woman say. "I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this I dreamt, and more. Do you have gifts for me, to pay me for my dreams?"

(ASoS, Arya IV)

Voila! I feel as if the previous somewhat random hints I had discerned were starting to come together:

• the man on the swaying bridge seems to be Balon or Euron Greyjoy, so that strengthens the association I had made between the nine swords on the crown and the Iron Islands (the "spike" swords alluding to "Pyke", etc.);
• the crow that pecks on the forehead to open a worthy person's third eye, and the injury on Jeyne Westerling's forehead where her mother grabbed the crown Robb had given to Jeyne; and
• the fact that Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart - who seems to appear as the fish woman in the GoHH's dream right after the mention of the drowned crow - has the sword-crown (or a sword-crown) when Brienne arrives in her presence.
• The crow / crown connection also strengthens the idea that Jon Snow is at the "crown" of a tower with scarecrows that are posing as his brothers.

But why would one of the Greyjoys have the "sword-crown / crow drowns" that is associated with the Stark Kings of Winter? Balon does declare himself to be King of the Iron Islands and the north, so maybe it is just a reference to his claim of sovereignty. As with all prophecies in the books, it's not entirely certain that Balon is the man on the swaying bridge - it could be a Faceless Man assassin, waiting to push Balon off the bridge; it could be Euron Greyjoy, who is known as Crow's Eye and who had a motive to have Balon killed. The man on the bridge could be someone else entirely - in Sansa's memory of the snow fight with her siblings, Bran stood on the roof of a covered bridge at Winterfell. Theon crossed the swaying bridge at Pyke. Both Bran (through the heart tree) and Theon will "see a wed(ding)" at Winterfell, which could be the seaweed reference.

I'm going to put some more thought into the dream of the GoHH. I think it might be like Patchface's revelations and will have some hidden meaning for us.