The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter - nine iron spikes

[Seams]

I just re-read the final Catelyn POV in AGoT and realized that one of the strongest messages in the chapter's subtext is that Robb is a son of Riverrun, not Winterfell. This may or may not be relevant to my larger or next point.

This is the chapter when the Stark bannermen name Robb The King in the North, and a crown is quickly produced or, rather, forged by Hoster Tully's smith:

The ancient crown of the Kings of Winter had been lost three centuries ago, yielded up to Aegon the Conqueror when Torrhen Stark knelt in submission. What Aegon had done with it no man could say. Lord Hoster's smith had done his work well, and Robb's crown looked much as the other was said to have looked in the tales told of the Stark kings of old; an open circlet of hammered bronze incised with the runes of the First Men, surmounted by nine black iron spikes wrought in the shape of longswords. Of gold and silver and gemstones, it had none; bronze and iron were the metals of winter, dark and strong to fight against the cold.

(ACoK, Catelyn)

So here's my thinking and my question: the longswords that look like spikes suggest beheadings, to me. Because heads are mounted on spikes after the King's Justice (or the law of the First Men) has been administered by use of a longsword. Our first introduction to Ned, Robb, Jon and Bran (and Theon) involves a beheading administered by Ned. My thinking is that there must be some significance in beheadings associated with the Starks, and that we need to count nine beheadings that will lead up to something big.

Would the beheadings have to be administered by a Stark to count as one of the nine? Does the beheading of a Stark count toward the total? Can you help me to accurately sort out how many Stark-related beheadings have occurred so far, and/or suggest alternate possible meanings of the nine longsword spikes in the crown?

My initial list:

• Gared beheaded by Ned for deserting the Night's Watch
• Eddard Stark beheaded by Ser Ilyn Payne at Joffrey's command for treason
• Septa Mordane beheaded at the Red Keep for association with the Starks (I'm not sure yet what to rule in or out. This one may not count.)
• Lord Rickard Karstark beheaded by Robb for murdering captive Lannister children
• Robb Stark beheaded after death (killed by Roose Bolton at the Red Wedding) for treason
• Janos Slynt by Jon Snow for insubordination toward the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.
• Sweetrobin's doll beheaded by Sansa at the model of Winterfell built out of snow (This is probably foreshadowing or, based on other evidence I am gathering, Sansa personifies a sword and is both judge and executioner at the Winterfell she has built).

Because of the symbolism of the ancient Stark crown, I'm already starting to think that the beheadings might only count if they are administered in accordance with the Laws of the First Men, i.e., 'The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.' In which case, the only beheadings that count toward the nine so far are Gared, Rickard Karstark and Janos Slynt and possibly Sweetrobin's doll. That kind of makes sense - the deaths are delivered by people who are Stark Lords or a Lady or King. (Jon would be King if Robb's letter legitimizing him is found and revealed, or his beheading of Slynt would be lawful under his authority as Lord Commander.)

What have I missed? Do you think there is a connection between the Stark crown and beheadings?

[Artos Cold]

3 minutes ago, Seams said:

 

Because of the symbolism of the ancient Stark crown, I'm already starting to think that the beheadings might only count if they are administered in accordance with the Laws of the First Men,

What does that even mean? A beheading is a beheading, it doesnt matter who or why they swung the fucking sword, you're either way. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I don't believe GRRM plays with such super-cryptic codes.

[aryagonnakill#2]

The 9 swords likely indicate 9 kings that bent the knee.  Bolton, Umber, Reed, etc etc.

[Adam Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I don't believe GRRM plays with such super-cryptic codes.

Agreed.

[Clarrisa]

I've always wondered if the crown had something to do with the circle of nine weirwoods north of the wall where Jon and Sam took their vows.

[Maester of Valyria]

I think it may be a reference to the nine regions of Westeros, and how they were once forged into one (from the Conquest) but are now splitting away by themselves.

Do we know if the spikes are evenly spaced around the crown's circumference, or were some bunched together? Were they all straight, or did some bend towards others? This could be various regions making and breaking alliances in the bloody wars to come (the crown is described as warlike after all).

 

Or, you know, GRRM's favourite number might be nine.

[Seams]

3 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The 9 swords likely indicate 9 kings that bent the knee.  Bolton, Umber, Reed, etc etc.

The World book lists more than nine, though: Flint, Slate, Umber, Locke, Glover, Fisher, Ryder, Blackwoods (mayhaps), the Warg King (at Sea Dragon Point), Greenwood, Towers, Amber, Frost, "together with a score of other lesser houses and petty kings whose names are lost to history" (p. 137). Oh, and Bolton.

2 hours ago, Clarrisa said:

I've always wondered if the crown had something to do with the circle of nine weirwoods north of the wall where Jon and Sam took their vows.

This might be a logical explanation, Clarrisa. Nice catch. For the number nine (but with a possible beheading connection).

The sun was sinking below the trees when they reached their destination, a small clearing in the deep of the wood where nine weirwoods grew in a rough circle. Jon drew in a breath, and he saw Sam Tarly staring. Even in the wolfswood, you never found more than two or three of the white trees growing together; a grove of nine was unheard of. The forest floor was carpeted with fallen leaves, bloodred on top, black rot beneath. The wide smooth trunks were bone pale, and nine faces stared inward. The dried sap that crusted in the eyes was red and hard as ruby. Bowen Marsh commanded them to leave their horses outside the circle. "This is a sacred place, we will not defile it." (AGoT, Jon IX).

The World books says of the First Men, that many "...aspects of their culture have faded away (such as the grislier aspects of their worship, when criminals and traitors were killed and their bodies and entrails hung from the branches of weirwoods)" (pp. 135-136). If spikes on castle walls replaced weirwoods as a place to display punished criminals and traitors, nine spikes on the crown could substitute for nine weirwoods in the sacred grove.

29 minutes ago, Maester of Valyria said:

I think it may be a reference to the nine regions of Westeros, and how they were once forged into one (from the Conquest) but are now splitting away by themselves.

Do we know if the spikes are evenly spaced around the crown's circumference, or were some bunched together? Were they all straight, or did some bend towards others? This could be various regions making and breaking alliances in the bloody wars to come (the crown is described as warlike after all).

All I know of the physical description of the crown is the quote in the OP from Catelyn's last POV in AGoT. She is describing something known only from legend, though, so there had to be guesswork involved. And I think it's significant that the crown was made at Riverrun, not in the North. In other words, it's not really a northern crown for a northern king, which may be why Robb's rule was doomed.

I don't know about the nine regions - are you counting the nine from the table of contents in the World book? The North, The Wall and Beyond, The Riverlands, The Vale, The Iron Islands, The Westerlands, The Reach, The Stormlands and Dorne. That could work as an alternate explanation. I would expect the meaning to have a more specific connection to the North, though, since this crown was for the Kings of Winter.

Interestingly, on the same page of the World book as most of the North history I've just cited (p. 135), there is a boxed paragraph describing the "custom" of referring to the Seven Kingdoms that existed before Aegon's Conquest but pointing out that seven is not a precise number. The paragraph points out the Dorne might not count as a kingdom since it isn't ruled by a king, and that Dragonstone was never included among the seven.

This is all helpful brainstorming, though. Thanks for the substantive responses.

[Rohed]

5 hours ago, Seams said:

The World book lists more than nine, though: Flint, Slate, Umber, Locke, Glover, Fisher, Ryder, Blackwoods (mayhaps), the Warg King (at Sea Dragon Point), Greenwood, Towers, Amber, Frost, "together with a score of other lesser houses and petty kings whose names are lost to history" (p. 137). Oh, and Bolton.

This might be a logical explanation, Clarrisa. Nice catch. For the number nine (but with a possible beheading connection).

The sun was sinking below the trees when they reached their destination, a small clearing in the deep of the wood where nine weirwoods grew in a rough circle. Jon drew in a breath, and he saw Sam Tarly staring. Even in the wolfswood, you never found more than two or three of the white trees growing together; a grove of nine was unheard of. The forest floor was carpeted with fallen leaves, bloodred on top, black rot beneath. The wide smooth trunks were bone pale, and nine faces stared inward. The dried sap that crusted in the eyes was red and hard as ruby. Bowen Marsh commanded them to leave their horses outside the circle. "This is a sacred place, we will not defile it." (AGoT, Jon IX).

The World books says of the First Men, that many "...aspects of their culture have faded away (such as the grislier aspects of their worship, when criminals and traitors were killed and their bodies and entrails hung from the branches of weirwoods)" (pp. 135-136). If spikes on castle walls replaced weirwoods as a place to display punished criminals and traitors, nine spikes on the crown could substitute for nine weirwoods in the sacred grove.

All I know of the physical description of the crown is the quote in the OP from Catelyn's last POV in AGoT. She is describing something known only from legend, though, so there had to be guesswork involved. And I think it's significant that the crown was made at Riverrun, not in the North. In other words, it's not really a northern crown for a northern king, which may be why Robb's rule was doomed.

I don't know about the nine regions - are you counting the nine from the table of contents in the World book? The North, The Wall and Beyond, The Riverlands, The Vale, The Iron Islands, The Westerlands, The Reach, The Stormlands and Dorne. That could work as an alternate explanation. I would expect the meaning to have a more specific connection to the North, though, since this crown was for the Kings of Winter.

Interestingly, on the same page of the World book as most of the North history I've just cited (p. 135), there is a boxed paragraph describing the "custom" of referring to the Seven Kingdoms that existed before Aegon's Conquest but pointing out that seven is not a precise number. The paragraph points out the Dorne might not count as a kingdom since it isn't ruled by a king, and that Dragonstone was never included among the seven.

This is all helpful brainstorming, though. Thanks for the substantive responses.

 Something that stuck out to me is the display of criminals and traitors... Possibly there will be 9 key traitors to the storey ? 9 false kings ? ... Kinda fits with the beheading aspect ...

[Seams]

4 minutes ago, Rohed said:

 Something that stuck out to me is the display of criminals and traitors... Possibly there will be 9 key traitors to the story ? 9 false kings ? ... Kinda fits with the beheading aspect ...

That's an interesting idea. In Jon IX, at the end of AGoT, Jon calls himself, Sam Tarly and Ghost traitors for various reasons. Maybe the so-called Traitors will band together with six others to crown a new King of Winter . . .

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The 9 swords likely indicate 9 kings that bent the knee.  Bolton, Umber, Reed, etc etc.

Thanks Arya, that is exactly what I was thinking, too.   The KOW sort of wore their kingdom on the heads didn't they?

[StarkofWinterfell]

Refreshing topic!

Anyone else find it funny that Robb's crown had ancient runes on it? Runes that supposedly no one knows how to read. It's like getting a Chinese tattoo you think means "Love" but instead means "Green Moldy Horse Dung."

Just thought I'd share this funny thought I had.

[Rohed]

3 hours ago, Seams said:

That's an interesting idea. In Jon IX, at the end of AGoT, Jon calls himself, Sam Tarly and Ghost traitors for various reasons. Maybe the so-called Traitors will band together with six others to crown a new King of Winter . . .

I was thinking more in terms of deaths .. We have 9 weirwoods , 9 gods? , 9 greenseers?... 

I think we will see 9 kings before we see the one true king of winter.. Each a traitor in there own way in terms of what's needed as a king of winter.

ots interesting that the number 3 is stressed so much in the books ... But we have three dragons .. And the dragon has three heads ... That would equal 9 wouldn't it ? 

Not sure how it relates but I think it's interesting 

[StarkofWinterfell]

8 hours ago, Seams said:

The World book lists more than nine, though: Flint, Slate, Umber, Locke, Glover, Fisher, Ryder, Blackwoods (mayhaps), the Warg King (at Sea Dragon Point), Greenwood, Towers, Amber, Frost, "together with a score of other lesser houses and petty kings whose names are lost to history" (p. 137). Oh, and Bolton.

This might be a logical explanation, Clarrisa. Nice catch. For the number nine (but with a possible beheading connection).

The sun was sinking below the trees when they reached their destination, a small clearing in the deep of the wood where nine weirwoods grew in a rough circle. Jon drew in a breath, and he saw Sam Tarly staring. Even in the wolfswood, you never found more than two or three of the white trees growing together; a grove of nine was unheard of. The forest floor was carpeted with fallen leaves, bloodred on top, black rot beneath. The wide smooth trunks were bone pale, and nine faces stared inward. The dried sap that crusted in the eyes was red and hard as ruby. Bowen Marsh commanded them to leave their horses outside the circle. "This is a sacred place, we will not defile it." (AGoT, Jon IX).

The World books says of the First Men, that many "...aspects of their culture have faded away (such as the grislier aspects of their worship, when criminals and traitors were killed and their bodies and entrails hung from the branches of weirwoods)" (pp. 135-136). If spikes on castle walls replaced weirwoods as a place to display punished criminals and traitors, nine spikes on the crown could substitute for nine weirwoods in the sacred grove.

All I know of the physical description of the crown is the quote in the OP from Catelyn's last POV in AGoT. She is describing something known only from legend, though, so there had to be guesswork involved. And I think it's significant that the crown was made at Riverrun, not in the North. In other words, it's not really a northern crown for a northern king, which may be why Robb's rule was doomed.

I don't know about the nine regions - are you counting the nine from the table of contents in the World book? The North, The Wall and Beyond, The Riverlands, The Vale, The Iron Islands, The Westerlands, The Reach, The Stormlands and Dorne. That could work as an alternate explanation. I would expect the meaning to have a more specific connection to the North, though, since this crown was for the Kings of Winter.

Interestingly, on the same page of the World book as most of the North history I've just cited (p. 135), there is a boxed paragraph describing the "custom" of referring to the Seven Kingdoms that existed before Aegon's Conquest but pointing out that seven is not a precise number. The paragraph points out the Dorne might not count as a kingdom since it isn't ruled by a king, and that Dragonstone was never included among the seven.

This is all helpful brainstorming, though. Thanks for the substantive responses.

If you like the idea of there being 9 regions and the Ancient Starks had 9 swords on their ancestral crown of the Kings of Winter, then you'd like my theory that the Starks once ruled all of Westeros during the Long Night. Kings of Winter would mean so much more that way.

[Scorpion92]

I think nine weirwood tree grove (where I believe Jon will get resurrected by the way) and nine longswords in Robb's crown foreshadow nine people on which the new Westerosi government will rely upon: Jon, Dany, Sansa, Arya, Theon, Gendry, Davos, Tyrion, Sam. And if you think about it, each of them represent a region of Westeros in one way or another. North (including Real North as well) - Jon; Iron Isles - Theon; Westerlands - Tyrion; Vale - Sansa (her tutelage under Littlefinger and learning to become game master); Riverlands - Arya (her adventures there and eventual return to the region and reunion with Nymeria) ; Reach - Sam; Stormlands - Gendry (he has blood of Durrandons-Baratheons flowing in his veins); Crownlands - Davos (a commoner from Flea Bottom); Dorne - Dany (if lemongate and her being Ashara's daughter turn out to be true).

I don't know, just my two cents.

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

I see where you're coming from but I just don't buy it. It's too far fetched of GRRM to think that every reader will get the reference especially because the numbers of decapitations are getting out of hand. I like the idea but it would be too much of a foreshadowing act, remember the crown looks exactly like the one that was lost 300 years ago, how would these old lords and kings know what would happen 1000 years after they had forged the crown? Not plausible IMHO but I like the idea nonetheless.

[Maester of Valyria]

19 hours ago, Seams said:

All I know of the physical description of the crown is the quote in the OP from Catelyn's last POV in AGoT. She is describing something known only from legend, though, so there had to be guesswork involved. And I think it's significant that the crown was made at Riverrun, not in the North. In other words, it's not really a northern crown for a northern king, which may be why Robb's rule was doomed.

I don't know about the nine regions - are you counting the nine from the table of contents in the World book? The North, The Wall and Beyond, The Riverlands, The Vale, The Iron Islands, The Westerlands, The Reach, The Stormlands and Dorne. That could work as an alternate explanation. I would expect the meaning to have a more specific connection to the North, though, since this crown was for the Kings of Winter.

Interestingly, on the same page of the World book as most of the North history I've just cited (p. 135), there is a boxed paragraph describing the "custom" of referring to the Seven Kingdoms that existed before Aegon's Conquest but pointing out that seven is not a precise number. The paragraph points out the Dorne might not count as a kingdom since it isn't ruled by a king, and that Dragonstone was never included among the seven.

Yes, the nine political regions of Westeros south of the Wall at the time of the start of Game. For this reason Dorne and Dragonstone wouldn't break the pattern, as the former was assimilated into Targaryen rule, and the latter is part of the Crownlands.

It wouldn't necessarily have to be something intrinsically connected with the North: it could be GRRM putting in references and foreshadowing wherever there's space. Or not. We really won't know without more information.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I am fairly certain that the Nine Spikes on the crown of the Old Kings of Winter would have nothing to do with the regions of Westeros south of the Neck. It has to relate to something specifically relevant to the North. In my view there are two options.

Either it refers to nine geographical features - like perhaps nine unique regions of the united North afer the last Red King finally bowed to Winterfell - or it refers to something mystical - perhaps nine was a number of importance in the religion of the Old Gods.

I don't think we have enough information to figure it out yet.

 

[Maester of Valyria]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I am fairly certain that the Nine Spikes on the crown of the Old Kings of Winter would have nothing to do with the regions of Westeros south of the Neck. It has to relate to something specifically relevant to the North. In my view there are two options.

Either it refers to nine geographical features - like perhaps nine unique regions of the united North afer the last Red King finally bowed to Winterfell - or it refers to something mystical - perhaps nine was a number of importance in the religion of the Old Gods.

I don't think we have enough information to figure it out yet.

 

Nine regions of the North. Let's see:

1. Winterfell and its environs, ruled by the Starks, Kings of Winter
2. Dreadfort, Boltons, Red Kings
3. Barrowton, Dustins, First Kings
4. Greywater Watch, Reeds, Marsh Kings
5. Deepwood Motte, Glovers
6. The Rills, Ryswell?
7. Torrhen's Square, Tallhart
8. Last Hearth, Umbers
9. Breakstone Hill, Flint

Of course, our information on many of these Houses' history is sadly lacking, so with a few exceptions most of the above may not factor in here. In addition, you have Houses like Cerwyn and Hornwood, which may or may not have been extant during the Long Night and Dawn Age, not to mention extinct Houses such as House Towers.

[Seams]

22 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

Refreshing topic!

Anyone else find it funny that Robb's crown had ancient runes on it? Runes that supposedly no one knows how to read. It's like getting a Chinese tattoo you think means "Love" but instead means "Green Moldy Horse Dung."

Just thought I'd share this funny thought I had.

Yes, the question of rune accuracy struck me as an issue as soon as the design was described. Even if there is a rune expert at the Citadel, it seems unlikely that anyone at Riverrun would know what message or spell to inscribe on the crown, unless they went with some generic "Winter is Coming" or "I'd rather be warging" platitudes. Not only are they guessing about the physical look of the crown, based on a 300-year-old description, but they have Hoster Tully's smith whip up an instant crown made of the right metals within a day or two of Robb's banner men declaring him The King in the North.

So far, the only other things with runes on them are:

• Lord Yohn Royce's armor (and some contemporary copies of the ancient armor, worn by his sons),
• Tormund Giantsbane's armbands (one of the first details described when Jon sees him for the first time),
• the carved stone warhammer on a tomb (worn away by centuries of weather),
• Ser Ilyn Payne's silver sword at the purple wedding (used to cut the giant pie),
• the big horn Mance tells Jon is the Horn of Joruman (the gold bands with runes are always mentioned when this horn is referenced),
• unreadable histories, accoring to Sam Tarly: "The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later."
• a bronze dagger on the table before the Widow of the Waterfront who finds berths for Ser Jorah and Tyrion on the Selaesori Qhoran.