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Curled Finger

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About Curled Finger

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    The Darkest Steps of Mordor

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  1. Curled Finger

    If Sansa had gone with Sandor

    Wow, lots of cynicism here. I think @Clegane'sPup may have the right of this musing. The Hound wanted to get as far away from Kings Landing as possible. There was no safer place than the North at the time. The point behind offering to take Sansa away was valor. The Hound, crude and gruff as he was, had a knight's heart. He aimed to save the damsel in distress. Love may be taking it a bit far as I read it all, and this exchange during the Battle of the Blackwater is the culmination of all Sandor and Sansa's conversations. They would have got out of Kings Landing and would have still likely been taken captive in the Riverlands. Given his treatment of both sisters it's entirely possible The Hound would have taken a different approach to securing Sansa's safety. The Hound was bold, as Joff's men go. He wasn't stupid.
  2. Curled Finger

    Chaos of Conspiracy

    Curious. The Darrys are certainly implied to be in cahoots with the BWB. But they are also implied to support a Targaryan Restoration. I realize this is probably nothing, but I'm picking at threads because everything in the Riverlands bugs me. How could both those tie ins, if true, serve each other? Those Darrys are into things, but they aren't big players...or are they?
  3. Curled Finger

    Fate of Olyvar Frey

    @Seams, thanks for the support. What a great breakdown of the Frey descendants. All this talk of Rosby heir made me begin to think that even old Walder considered his Rosby offspring to be valuable, not attainted by the Red Wedding directly? I had never actually thought Walder deemed anyone valuable. He's such a nasty old bird. This is great stuff to ponder.
  4. Curled Finger

    Chaos of Conspiracy

    A kindred spirit! Thanks for that. There is so much wonderful mire. Yah, I can see hating the Freys in the light you cast. We have a leader in my country who says the most inappropriate things. Stuff like this shouldn't be able to fall out of a world leader's mouth. I am occasionally embarrassed by this because he is the leader and I fear people will think I put him there. Silly, but can you imagine the shame, dismay or horror the Riverlands natives (would) feel at the Frey's actions? Walder wasn't thought well of as far back as Dunk & Egg and he never made a good name for himself or his house. He lucked into a money maker. I mentioned the bolded in a different reply above. I'm glad you brought it up and think it's odd, too. Any thoughts on who Blackfish would trust with his intentions? You feel free to come back and deposit any more curiosities that strike your fancy. I get the feeling you see it much the way I do, but you seem to have some clearer ideas about where it's all going.
  5. Curled Finger

    Chaos of Conspiracy

    I couldn't snip any of it, Seams, and thank you for some really clear connections. There is no telling what legend relates to which current event, but you made a nice case for NK/CQ across the board. As the journey continues I am finding more glitches or direct connections and I reckon this little conversation is my realization of the difference in organization in the politics of the North and Riverlands. And I know I'm a sucker, but the Riverlands did take Robb as their king rather readily. None of this makes clear sense except when a brilliant detective can make a connection between the past and present. Well done! Same as it ever was, I've got this itch to discuss all things Riverlands, my personal revelations about Brienne and Thoros' description of the new members of the BWB, the missing boys as I'm stuck on in the Olyvar Frey topic, who would Blackfish actually trust to do anything to help him in a high risk move he's about to make. So your answer is a welcome surprise and I would be very happy to know any further thoughts you have in any of this chaos.
  6. Curled Finger

    Chaos of Conspiracy

    Wheels within wheels, my friend. I get it. There is more conspiracy and plot than most people can actually stomach in this story. I think it's possible something huge is happening but I can't figure out what. I wonder if this is organized or just more chaos born of chaos. The Riverlands have taken the brunt of the War of the 5 Kings. It sounded like a really nice place at 1st, now it's ruined. If I was there I would try to put things back together under whatever rule they gave me...then I get to thinking about the rule they did give...Lannisters and Freys? There is no rich Riverlands heritage in either family. (Part of why I don't get why the Tullys, newcomers than the Freys, are such a big deal?) It is a wicked hostile corporate takeover. I think there are 3 or 4 main conspiracies and just as many minor conspiracies at play. Interesting and probable take on Cat's childhood pre Edmure. Good to be reminded of important little things.
  7. Curled Finger

    Chaos of Conspiracy

    I get where you're coming from, but I don't think any of them are aimless. I always figured the BwB was splintered into several groups now and can't help but wonder why the collective allows Stoneheart to do her thing. She's not Beric. Are there really that many converted R'hllorists in the Riverlands? Did I miss some point about the Tully's importance? Half these people aren't even Riverlanders?
  8. Curled Finger

    Chaos of Conspiracy

    That's sort of the point, my friend. Games in the Riverlands looks like a box of clocks to me with gears spinning in all directions. You get a good sense what the North wants: Rid of Bolton, maybe a little revenge. But these people are all from the same culture and region. If they can rally behind a little boy Stark every single 1 of them will jockey for control of that little Stark boy. Far as I can tell, this is a theme among the Northmen. It makes sense even if it is coming from different factions. It's fluid. This thing in the Riverlands is a whole other can of worms. I'm impressed with the support of the nobility for the BWB. I guess there are probably 2, maybe as many as 8 people with secret identities hiding in the Riverlands, some for a long time and why do the newer ones stay? The smallfolk are not just rioting and hating the king like they do in Kings Landing. The Riverlands is actually bringing people rather than classes together. Not unlike Little Finger integrating the merchant class into the dying nobility in the Vale. There is an organization here, but I can't fully write it off as another wasteland. There are some real players here. Why? I can't see anyone really getting behind the Tullys except Edmure, who was good to the smallfolk at least once. I never got the feeling he was otherwise that important outside titles. It's not looking like he will be around for anyone to rally behind any way. Yah, to what end?
  9. Curled Finger

    Fate of Olyvar Frey

    It's definitely worth a reread to see if I can discern this. Merrit was such a weak man I didn't take his words to be anything other than his own fear. You could be absolutely right about the missing boys. Missing happens.
  10. Curled Finger

    Chaos of Conspiracy

    The Brotherhood Without Banners originated with a fairly powerful, certainly reputable Lord and retinue united with Northmen as well as a tourney hero to bring Greggor Clegane to justice. They are ambushed and seriously decimated by the Lannisters. It's probable that with the good word of Lords Vance, Piper and Darry, Dondarion's group was widely perceived as saviors in the Riverlands. The Lannisters made sure to publicize the brutality of that massacre--their leaders' death a particular point of pride. Beric tells Arya how those brave noble men became a group of vigilantes, the BWB. "When we left King's Landing we were men of Winterfell and men of Darry and men of Blackhaven, Mallery men and Wylde men. We were knights and squires and men-at-arms, lords and commoners, bound together only by our purpose." The voice came from the man seated amongst the weirwood roots halfway up the wall. "Six score of us set out to bring the king's justice to your brother." The speaker was descending the tangle of steps toward the floor. "Six score brave men and true, led by a fool in a starry cloak." A scarecrow of a man, he wore a ragged black cloak speckled with stars and an iron breastplate dinted by a hundred battles. A thicket of red-gold hair hid most of his face, save for a bald spot above his left ear where his head had been smashed in. "More than eighty of our company are dead now, but others have taken up the swords that fell from their hands." ASOS Arya VI Note they set out on quest with 120 lords, noblemen, men at arms, knights and common men. 80 have died, but others have taken up their swords. Thoros tells Arya who replaced the original crew: We were still king's men, he said, and these were the king's people the lions were savaging. If we could not fight for Robert, we would fight for them, until every man of us was dead. And so we did, but as we fought something queer happened. For every man we lost, two showed up to take his place. A few were knights or squires, of gentle birth, but most were common men—fieldhands and fiddlers and innkeeps, servants and shoemakers, even two septons. Men of all sorts, and women too, children, dogs . . ." ASOS Arya III Not only are the few surviving original members of the BWB movers and shakers, they seem to have some powerful supporters AND the smallfolk joining their ranks every day! A few knights or squires? Who? Why? There are so many battles to choose from why the ruined Riverlands? Do any of these other factions of the more public BWB buy into Lady Stoneheart and her justice? Where are the missing members thought to still be living. We walked with Brienne and then Jamie all over the Riverlands. We know some powerful lords are at play--against each other or united in small unattached ways against Kings Landing and the Freys? Some thing or one else? We saw what Bracken tried to do to Blackwood when Jamie ends the siege of Raven Tree Hall, the loss of Darry from Lannister control, the rumors and stories and vicious truth about the state of affairs. With all this land grabbing why hasn't anyone tried to wrestle the Inn at the Crossroads from the ragged surviving Weddles? With all this restoration to peace why are murderous outlaws allowed to roam about hanging people and destroying the Saltpans? Why is Brienne traveling with a knight, child squire, septon and dog when she's taken captive by the BWB? Conspiracy is clearly at play in the Riverlands every bit as much as in the North and King's Landing. To what end? So much is written about broken men in AFFC but is foretold by Thoros and Beric in the previous novel. Breaking Brienne is precisely what seems to be happening at the BWB's hands. What or who are the 6 of Rhaegar’s rubies in possession of the brothers on the QI? Is there some reason beyond revenge for the coming massacre at Riverrun? There are so many moving parts in the Riverlands it's impossible to throw a dart without hitting some ulterior motive wherever it lands. If Olyvar Frey really was sent to act as heir to Rosby who does it serve? What of the extended Frey family members in the Vale and North? Who would hide Robb Stark's brother in law? Who would the Blackfish trust for aid? Too much power shifting and positioning afoot. What's really going on in the Riverlands if not a chaos of conspiracy? Why does't this feel like the Grand Northern Conspiracy?
  11. Curled Finger

    End game predictions for all the characters?

    That never once crossed my radar! Excellent totally unexpected take on Cersei's fate. This would be so much better than death for her. Even if there is no redemption arc for our evil queen, this would be perfect justice for her. That would be so hard and wonderful to read. Couldn't let the 2nd go without a little applause. Great stuff! Thanks for putting some thoughts out there, I knew you would have something fascinating to offer up.
  12. Curled Finger

    Most melancholic and "Human" moments in ASOIAF?

    All excellent moments. Remember thinking "Good, at least Hot Pie has found a home in all this madness..."? I'll take it, too.
  13. Curled Finger

    Most melancholic and "Human" moments in ASOIAF?

    Right On! It will be interesting to see what you think about things after your next study. The tale is a masterpiece. You can come check in here with any really pertinent Tyrion moments--there are so many. He's not easy to read in Dance, that is I've always felt he was hard to swallow in his self loathing drunken madness. But he's still very clever and funny beneath his madness. Mostly I began to spot him from time to time, but I still find something new in each reread and reconciling the person he becomes with the person he was gets easier. I bet you will have a few more treasures. Applauding!
  14. Curled Finger

    Fate of Olyvar Frey

    Ah Lady, once again you illuminate my monitor with your lovely and informed explanation. Thanks for breaking that down in simple terms. I thought the Freys were all sleazy on my 1st read but have since come around to your thinking about a very few of them. That's no doubt part of where my fascination with these missing boys stems from--reading and understanding a little rather than consuming a book. All 3 of our missing boys belong to "bad" camps, mean wretched people, but Olyvar and Raynar are so closely linked to Robb and his betrayal of the Frey promise. Every reread of Jamie and Brienne's chapters brings their characters closer to surface, very good descriptions of human beings in my mind. I know the Lannisters aren't all opportunistic ruthless jerks just as those few decent Freys loved Robb and did their duty to him. Why are these 3 boys missing of all the boys who have gone missing? Why these families, with all of them so clearly set against the north? We don't see much of any of them, but the glimpses we got were convincing. I still can't get over a Westerling being the one trying to save Grey Wind. Why was he right there? What was so obvious about Olyvar's loyalty to Robb that he couldn't be permitted to even remain at the Red Wedding? Perhaps it is this Rosby connection and you make a reasonable argument in favor of this. Were they simply idealistic boys as has been suggested before, or is it possible they have some small part yet to play? Watching a warg bonded direwolf die at near the same time his warg bonded Stark had to be unusual, maybe supernatural, I don't know. Just seems like something would happen. I gotta go read the early Sansa chapters again...Thanks for taking the time to write that thoughtful reply.
  15. Curled Finger

    Fate of Olyvar Frey

    Are you saying that the Freys disowned Olyvar? I don't believe that for a second, but I gotta hand it to you, it's a good idea. Agreed, people do indeed go missing all the time during war. So why draw our attention to any of them? Tyrek is no more important than any of the others and I got the serious feeling that Westerling was a true believer in Robb. It's so curious that this specific character, a brand new good brother, new to the cause and this is the 1 GRRM chose to try to save Grey Wind? Jeyne sure appears to have loved her king--she's taken beatings over her dead husband. Why the focus on the Lannister cousins taken prisoner or Lancel? (To show us how valuable these people are on the chess board? Remember Brienne's dad offered 300 dragons I think, for her release. Jamie thinks this is a fair ransom for a house knight. There was a price for the Lannister boys as well as Jamie--I wonder if any of the Red Wedding hostages are worth ransom to any of the players?) No, it would not be a terrible story if we never learn any of their fates, or even if Satin has a different backstory than the one he gives...but these are such interesting little prayers (sacrifices) to the overall story.
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