Corvo the Crow

Dammit ok. Just getting banned is enough I guess. I've already deleted some 20 pages worth of it but most weren't anything useful.

Dude exactly how pathetic are you? I've not responded to you in months, I made it plainly clear that you were disturbing me, told you that I was not going to respond you, I've blocked you, I've told you that I've blocked you and yet you keep on responding to me as if your sole intention is to harass me and even throwing insults like twat etc. Only time I ever see your posts are when I forgot logging in or when someone else quotes you. Seriously, just how pathetic is that?

If that is the case then GRRM made a very poor job pf portraying because he literally told us that Tokar is permitted to the freeborn men men as in not males but humans and made it very clear that the garment itself signifies no status beyond being freeborn or not, by stating that it is the material used on the fringes that signify status. Since you are here I'll ask you something you'll very much like. I'm sick of the hypocrisy in the forums and especially disgusted by the moderation's and by moderation's I mean no offense to any other members of the moderation team because I had no problem with any of them besides you. Don't deny it, I've got a day's worth of ban for calling someone a troll a week's worth of ban for reporting a month old post, which was something I wouldn't have done in the first place if a person(or was it persons? whatever) that called me a troll got the same treatment as I did and got a months worth of ban for opening a thread comparing Jon with inspector clouseau when there are plenty of threads that don't even get locked for out of universe comparisons. I've been insulted numerous times on this forum and the insulter didn't even get a day's worth of ban. Really can you tell me how it's not a double standard that someone calling another a troll gets banned while you can get away with just the deletion of a post calling someone a twat or mouth diarrhea etc? Last 2 months I've only spent here because I was also digging some of my old posts that I wanted to preserve and now that's done I've started deleting all my posts but takes a good amount of time. How about you just delete them all then ban my accaount permanently?

Is that so? Then it was an unlucky day to wear tokar? Tell me please why order the deaths of people wearing tokar then? What even is the point when people who share the exact same status in society get killed or spared simply based on whether they were wearing a Tokar that they or not? Was it a crime against Dany’s sense of fashion? Ordering to not kill children below a certain age after giving specific orders that encompass the entire freeborn population and even a good number of slaves is simply that, an order to spare children below a certain age and not including anyone else in the to spare list means no one else is to be spared. Was the action of chain breaking also restricted to the plaza then? And? Really means nothing since even before Dany came slavers actually held very little power. Also groups that had litttle or no power at all have been such targets in our world as well and guess what, fearmongering worked despite that.

No, not all, but she set out with that intention at first as evidenced by the order and the attempt was clearly made in Astapor. Only after she was cornered, she also allowed slavery in both Astapor and Yunkai, clearly due to that same reason. Sorry but I am not claiming these ara “Poor, innocent Ghiscari slavers”, claiming that I do is dishonest, actually thinking that I do it is quite dumb. Like, give one example where I’ve claimed that they are innocent. Is simply pointing out that Tywin killed all the Tarbecks is defending Tarbecks?

Yeah, you haven’t actually. Actually, it is fairly obvious with your Korea example that you don’t know it. Again, the the description, please try to read this time https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity An ethnicity or ethnic group is a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of perceived shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include common sets of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area But just to show that UNSULLIED, and not some random slave soldiers, could perhaps be considered as one. It’s really hard on the phone and honestly I am sick of this discussion so I’ll just give one quote Religion. A Goddess whose name belongs only to the unsullied. They meet several other criteria as well. Back to Korean. Residing some country does not make you ethnically from that country(which may or may not have several different ethnicities). Again, I’m really sick of it because many members of this community are really unable to grasp some very simple things that are plainly on text. Don’t take this personally, it’s just really tiring trying to explain for the hundredth time that ALL the FREEBORN are entitled to wear a tokar and it is not the garments that denote status but the material used for the fringes of the Tokar. Man is used for human in many cases throughout the novels and Dany saying child and not boy is suggestive that this is also one such case. I just don’t like hypocrisy and whitewashing. Are you for real? Of course I’m not calling them genocides because they aren’t. There are a few other cases of genocide in the series like Dothraki with Sarnori(perhaps, can’t recall their exact history) but guess what, no one is trying to claim otherwise so I am not vocal about it.

It’s the Borrells.

Yeah, sure because you are unable to I'm wrong?

No but perhaps I may not have been as clear or detailed before. Not entirely. I say that "Astapori" the ethnic group and "Astapori" the person who lives in Astapor are not the same thing. Some would be Astapori in the sense of living there and some would be in both senses. Again, that doesn't make them ethically Astapori. If they were born there or brought at a very young age, they could be depending on how they were raised. I can give you one example of a group of slaves who are strictly not Astapori, the Unsullied. They are raised in an entirely different way than either a freeborn of Astapor or some other slave. In fact perhaps it would be pushing it a bit but unsullied could be considered their own ethic group. Some could be, yes, and that could make them also ethically Astapori depending on how they were raised but again, they would not be as numerous as new slaves, they would form a small group of the slaves just as Ghiscari slaves would form a small group. They don't keep slaves, they sell them and they don't breed slaves, they train slaves they acquired. Sure we see Cleon having a wife and a child so we know slaves can marry but it's not exactly slave breeding, if they were slave breeders they wouldn't have to rely on slaves they got from Dothraki etc. so much. Yes, because Braavosi is an ethnic group but initially they were different ethnic groups, they've molded into an ethnic group. Again, Astapori the ethnic group and Astapori the person who lives in Astapor are not entirely the same and again how you were raised is important such as the Unsullied example. Think of it this way, you started living in another country and even acquired citizenship, it makes you a citizen of that country but not ethnically from a group in that country. Your children may be considered ethnically a member of a group depending on how they were raised. If you stick to migrants that are of same background such as yourself, form and live in your own ghettos you can bet that your child won't be ethnically of that country's, city's etc. dominant ethnic group. Yes and I'm saying most of the slaves would not be culturally Astapori. Not all slaves are born in Astapor nor are they all brought in from a very young age and even among those who are born in Astapor or brought in from a very young age would be Astapori. There would be many slaves that could be considered ethnic Astapori but among what would be considered ethic Astapori, they wouldn't be as numerous as ethnic Astapori who are freeborn and of Ghiscari origin because slaves are kept not sold, slaves that were born in Astapor would form a very small percentage as they are not slave breeders, and children who are brought would also form a small number of slaves. Crimean Tatars took over the already established slave trade in Crimea from Genoese(or venetians, can't remember which was there) when they settled there and they would go on slave raids called "Steppe Harvest" I'm not sure but the ratio was something like for every slave that reached Crimea two others would die on the march back to Crimea. Any slaves Dothraki bring will also die on the road due to harsh conditions, and obviously the percentage of deaths among the children would be higher than adults. Out of 8000 spiked and more than 5000 unspiked. They are not unseen but just how common? If they can have so many slaves from among their own ranks then why are they so reliant on Dothraki or corsairs or other groups? Exactly, the Good Masters aren't a culture, ethnic group, race, whatever. The problem is Daenerys does not order the death of just the masters. She orders the death of all the freeborn 12 and above. Tokar is a garment permitted only to freeborn men so all freeborn men are entitled to wear one. You may try and claim that she limited the killings to males at least but no, we see women wearing tokar as well, even Daenerys herself so men =/= male gender, it's men and women both. She may very well have given an order that limited the killings by killing just the Good Masters and some who are of higher status, the fringes of a tokar denote the status so they are identifiable just by taking a glance but she didn't do that either, she ordered the deaths of all. she ordered the deaths of even the children by the age limit of not killing twelve or below. And finally, by ordering the deaths of soldiers and anyone who holds a whip, she ordered the deaths of all the slave soldiers that she didn't buy and all the overseer slaves.

If you have a better real world example please share. Ghiscari were inspired by Greek city states if I recall, perhaps that. But for in world comparison with the exception of Braavos all the free cities consider themselves the daughters of Valyria but they have their own seperate ethicities. Ghiscari is a race, if it can be called that, since it's a fantasy universe I think it is safe to say they are a race. Slaves which would not form the majority of the slave population of Astapor. Slave population of Astapor or any other Slaver's bay city would mostly come from: -Lhazareen who are seemingly constantly raided by the Dothraki as a source of slaves it's a wonder that they still exist after so many thousands of years (or perhaps just another instance of poor world building) -Naathi since they supposedly make such excellent and obedient slaves. -Dothraki themselves because different khalasars fight eachother and are known to enslave the people of rival khalasars (Irri and Jhiqui were daughters of a Khal) Astapori or any other slave of Ghiscari origin would be so few that even among the entire population of the Ghiscari descended residents of Astapor(freeborn, freed men or slave) they would form a minority. Firstly we don't know how many of their slaves come from the ones they bred themselves and how many come from outside such as Dothraki or traders. From what we've seen so far, they are more trainers and middlemen than slave breeders but let's leave that aside for a moment. Many have children and that children are sold, not kept. Slaver cities deal in slavery, they don't gather as many slaves as they could like Ash Ketchum going gotta catch them all with pokemon, they sell them. Sure they keep slaves around for many different functions but they are mostly sold. Some who are born in Astapor or even brought to Astapor at a very young age and raised in Astapor MAY be considered of Astapori ethnicity but that is very dependent on how they were raised. As In the previous post simply speaking another language doesn't make you of a different ethnicity, nor does obtaining the citizenship of another state. Same as above, it is very dependent on how they were raised, they may very well be considered Astapori. No. I'm not arguing that. I fail to understand your reasoning on repeatedly bringing Ghiscari slaves, they would be a minority not just among the slaves but even among the entire Ghiscari population of Astapor, which itself is far outnumbered by the slave population. Slaves are made up of people enslaved all over the Planetos, which include Ghiscari(in the "racial" sense) among their ranks as well but is not at all limited to Ghiscari. Yes, they consider themselves one "race". But guess what, ethicity has little to do with race. You could be of a common origin with someone but not of the same ethnicity and you can be of the same ethnicity with someone despite being of an entirely different origin. Unless they are quite isolated, most of the countries or people in the world are not of a single origin. Since I've started with Balkans let's give another example from there, many of the Balkan states, especially the Slavic ones are of quite mixed origin. They aren't purely Slavs (or Greek or Albanian etc.) Slavic ones for example are a mix of the Slavs that have migrated and the native population and to a degree depending on where they are, smaller contributions from other groups such as several waves of migrating Turkic people, perhaps Germanic peoples and Romans whose descendants may have stayed there, Vlachs, etc. What modern historians consider them is irrelevant. It's what the Spartans considered them, or rather, what they themselves considered is important and also how they were raised, their practices etc. Again, they would form a very small percentage and again, they would be considered Astapor. So COULD the slaves who are not of Ghiscari origin but were born in Astapor or brought there at a very young age, depending on how were they raised. As you can see above, I'm not. Funny that you've brought the Jews in Germany because I was also going to mention them. Considering them not German in the sense of ethnic German and not German in the sense of citizen of Germany are different things. I agree. What we should care is what the Jewish Germans considered themselves. Did they consider themselves ethnic Germans or did they consider themselves Jewish German citizens? I think it's the latter. And those definitions would be? Ethnicity - Wikipedia As you can see, I have more than once told you that it is what they themselves identify as. I think I could've given this example earlier but this is also a good place. Despite the numerous different "racial" origins of it's people, the people of Braavos form the ethnic group that is called Braavosi. Again, I am not sure why you came up with this in the first place, again genetics can form a part but isn't that much important and again it is a very small percent of the population. Since you have repeated this numerous times please give me one solid proof or evidence where I have stated that slaves who are of Ghiscari origin that live in Astapor are not genetically related to the slave owners or that they are not Astapori/Meereenese/Yunkish etc.

Not all the Astapori/Meereenese/Yunkish are part of the slave trading elite though.

Gardeners literally prepared against and waited for the Andals to invade the Reach for generations, they were established in the Reach for thousands of years at this point.

Sorry but you’ve posted a long post but it amounts to nothing. Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian. Are these treated as different ethnicities in our world or not? The answer to whether Astapori are an ethnic group or not is as simple as the answer to this and the answer is yes. You may argue that these three are not different ethnic groups and tell them “no no don’t be silly you are all just South Slavs!” but I don’t think they would agree with you, at the very least Serbs are so convinced they carried out a genocide. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_genocide Since you’ve tried to mold everyone to the Astapori identity simply based on their city(essentially a city state) of habitation, let’s also continue with the previous example. Bosnia and Herzegovina’s population is %50.1 Muslim Bosnians(also called Bosniak) 30.8 Serbs and %15.4 Croats. The common demonym for all three ethnic groups living in Bosnia and Herzegovina is, you’ve guessed it, Bosnian. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina The slaves are “Astapori” in the sense of that their place of habitation is Astapor but they are NOT part of Astapori the ethnic group, try not to mix those two, will you?

Dude, Starks have been there for “8000 years” or more, A Stark, Theon the Hungry Wolf, put the fear of Old Gods in the hearts of all those Andalosi so much, they never tried to invade da Norf again.

Worth noting is that Aegon and his family had converted to the 7 at this point and I really have my doubts on holy books of FoT7 such as The Seven-Pointed Star having lines such as "Thou shalt procreate with your siblings" so they were openly mocking the faith by their incestous ways. Aegon is acceptable as he was already married and 7 may also be against divorce but his children and grandchildren, not so.