Corvo the Crow

Sorry what? Here’s Ramsay confirming he was outnumbered five to one. Would you need me to color and bold and underline it it like you do? No, neither is 600. I had some number calculated over a year ago taking in the fact the roundings of the numbers in the series so both Theon’s and Ramsay’s statements would be “true” but I just can’t be arsed about to find it, not for you at least, given how your manners in your response is. As long as it take for someone to notice Ramsay is gathering men, inform Donella and Donella sending him to ask his intent, get a reply and then travel to Winterfell, stay for the feast, get captured by Ramsay, word of this to reach Manderly and Manderly to take action. A day, if it can happen in a day, at least a month if it can not happen earlier than that. It seem to me, you are the one doing the assumptions here, assuming you alone can base things on quote and everyone else is just making assumptions and when reality doesn’t fit your assumptions, you “lose your shit”, assuming others lose their shit. yeah assumption indeed

Text. Rodrik had “near 2000” Theon says Ramsay was outnembered five to one, Ramsay confirms. No offense but it is written in the books He may or may not have, but at the time of the harvest feast, he had been gathering men for some time and enough time has passed for someone to take notice, warn Donella, Donella sending to him asking his intent and getting a reply and after that travelling to WF for the feast. That is far more time than Manderly had to respond to both HW and WF incidents. No offense, but this is the books I am talking about, not assumptiond. Read the text. As for my thoughts on Manderlys leaving late and contributing fewer man than some others; It is possible that Robb’s primary task for him was to strengthen WH’s defenses(which he did, as Davos witnessed) and he may have sent men only after he felt confident in his numbers in defense. Well this is just an assumption but Manderly arriving the last doesn’t make sense without some reason for delay. Also Manderly greets Cat on her ship, so he was informed of her coming, meaning she sent a raven to inform, also possibly sending Ned’s orders to him.

Against dragons, Casterly Rock. Against anything else, Eyrie. Even without the way castles or gates of the moon it is impregnable, simply because there is just one narrow road at the edge of a mountain that leads to it.

Something small; Rodrik gathered men from nearest holdfasts, not the nearest towns or villages. Ramsay says his men are garrison troops but we know many of them just can’t be from Dreadfort garrison as he has been “massing” troops. Both Rodrik’s men and Ramsay’s must probably have been troops garrisoned at holdfasts or may be even smaller lords’ keeps.

I may not have been clear this last time, nor was I in the first time we made this discussion, so to clarify, , as I have before months ago, I am not saying Boltons are not above %50 nor am I saying returning Northmen don’t number ~4000 I am just saying, with the evidence we see, that these two can’t be at the same time, even one is not too likely but possiblw with the right circumatances. No but I know Robb had almost no Karstarks left with him(wounded and some serving men were left behind) Locke and Flint who would at least have some small retinue were obviously with Roose since they were not with Robb in RR, mountain clansmen as well since they travel on horses but do not fight on horse, at least not in large numbers. So beside Karstarks Roose had a smattering of men from other houses, individually powerless but put together would number in hundreds. Have you been reading what I say? I am saying this was what Grrm likely intended but the evidence is against it. Arya sees the CAMPS, plural, not a camp, and there are thousands of men and hundreds of horse when in fact, for Robb’s host, horses should outnumber the troops(every men with two horse, see Karstarks) here is another army, much bigger This is just the one camp. So she either sees (from inside) Roose’s camp which has hundreds of men from Umber, Karstark and clansmen alone, not counting other houses(Flint, Locke and more) which would further reduce his Bolton numbers or worse, she sees all the camps and yet there are far fewer horses than men. Also mind that Tyrion sees a camp sprawling across the Horizon, while Arya sees the camps from a higher point and doen’t describes them spreading as far as the horizon or going behind some hills etc. Again, to be the majority, Roose doesn’t need more than half the men, if he has, say 1500 and the next big contingent, Karstarks just number 500 with the rest being from dozens of houses big and small, each having a few dozen men at best, then Boltons would still be the majority. If Boltons are more than half, than Roose just can’t have 4000 men returning as his 3500 men had hundreds of men from Karstarks, Umber and Clansmen alone with untold numbers from many others. Also the Freys with 1 ton3 ratio is not noted to be most afoot while Northmen are told to be so, meaning even if there were Bolton men with Robb, which may or may not be, they do not number enough to make the returning northmen 1:3, which would be 1000 mounted men for 4000. And by mounted men, I am being loose here, counting not just cavalry but the likes of Steelshanks’ men or clansmen; mounted infantry(mounted crossbowmen of Steelshanks)

Don’t have much freetime at hand atm but... @Bernie Mac Don’t you think it’a a bit odd that Manderlys are the last to reach MC, arriving after even the Lockes and Flints who must pass through Manderly lands? Readig the text, it is possible(but by no way for sure) they may have left only after Cat and Rodrik arrived. I think men Manderly sent were “spare” men he could gather in short notice. As for Ramsay; 1. That number is 600 at most and could very well be as low as 400 (three times two hundred promised and Rodrik’s 2000 outnembered five to one) 2. Ramsay had prepared in advance where as Manderly did not(neither did Lady Hornwood, BTW) Also, as quoted above, Ramsay was easily captureed in the Hornwood lands indicating had no troops nearby, obviously had their hands full Manderlys who were courteus enough to hand their arses over to the Bolton men after beating their arses and have apparently captured not just Hornwood but other castles as well.

Lords declarent, 6 major houses, each raise 1000 and can raise 20000 together, that’s ~3350 per house on average. Royces are by far the most powerful and have vassals throughout the Vale. 5000 is probably the lower end of the scale and that is at worst. This is not the tv show. Manderlys and then the Dustins are the most powerful(It may even be the reverse with Barrowlands being so huge). Even in FaB/tPatQ it is made very clear(votes of Manderly, and Dustin but not Bolton important enough to mention) Boltons maybe third, or even fourth-fifth-sixth... we don’t know. From all we have seen so far. Karstark, Glover, Hornwood and Cerwyn are also strong contenders for the third. Worth noting, even after grievous losses in Greenfork and Karstark desertions, these houses still have more than 3000 footmen in Duskendale. That is more than a third of the infantry in WF and they were still raising more men. Cerwyns alone raised 300 men on a very short notice to defend WF/T’sS, compare that to Ramsay’s 400-600 in WF that he gathered in a very long time(they were already gathered to attack Hornwood long before) and it will hopefully become apparent.

Possibly, it could be the reason. I’m not sure what the title Marshal entitles you to but we have Osgreys who were the Marshals of NM and were the “first” to defend against Lannisters and from fire and blood Carons, “lords of the marches” are the marshals of dornish marches and We know for a fact they are not the overlord of other greater marcher lords. We also know it was Caron and Dondarrion who fought the vulture king(number whatever) and in the sworn sword we are told by lord Caron “his father took ~5000 men” to fight the VK, so it was the Carons who commanded. So marshals apparently either command the forces of that region or the defense of it(whether if the forces come from that part or others) it may even be both.

I’m sorry if you thought that I meant you were banned or something. I mentioned your nick because you said I am reaching my conclusions from an ideological point, when your nick was Free Northman, not once but twice and your thoughts on the north and the northerners are well known as well. Roose was already camped, Freys have been there even before Roose. Freys tell him they have thrown three feast tents and he can camp his host beside theirs. Arya and Sandor “crested a rise and castle, rivers and camps all appeared at once” they are on a higher vantage point and see it all. Also no on just knowing Karstarks. I have given quotes proving exactly which men couldn’t have come with Robb; Mountain clansmen as they are nor cavalry men, any noblemen who were not in Riverrun as we are told of each and every northman there not once but twice, in couincil and in the grove. A few washed away tents, that’s all. As said above, Arya and Sandor are on a high vantage point. And as also said above, Roose brought others besides Karstarks, Clansmen, Lockes and Widow’s watch Flints at the very least. No we are told. Barracks tents for two score footmen, feast tents able to seat hundreds. Also silk pavilions, for lords I guess and two dozen canvas ones for every silk one, likely for knights/lancers or maybe even smaller lords. You do realize this goes both ways, right? Also if you two haven’t noticed, Ran has not answered my questions. Now he doesn’t have any obligation to do so but as I’m sure you are aware, he is well into the numbers wouldn’t he have answered with a detailed post and just be done with it, closing this thing once and for all if he could have? This is fiction, not fact, mistakes are bound to happen and Mr. Martin seems to have blundered with numbers, especially northmen in and after RW or else why would he want people not to delve into the numbers so much? Not just the army numbers either but the distances and time and perhaps even money as well. Or do you think GRRM has laid it out all before, with specific numbers and then wrote based on those? Do you think men appearing out of the blue like clansmen with Stannis when there were already clansmen with Robb or disappearing into thin air like the 50000 Dornishmen are too consistent and are part of a plan? He doesn’t plan it all ahead but add and remove on the go, mistakes are bound to happen and indeed do happen. What I’m doing here is pointing out to those and saying “this can’t be, because of this and that” and saying “but if we bend it this way or that, then yeah, perhaps”. I am well aware GRRM likely wanted Boltons to be well above %50, he may even have said all those returning are Boltons because you know what? These men are just ink drops on paper and not flesh and blood, they can appear and disappear on the paper at the whim of GRRM unlike real beings in a real world. But when it happens, it fills the books with inconsistancies. Now, we are still a good few pages away from getting a thread lock, I don’t want the thread to get shut down too soon with this discussion as an excuse.

None chose to honor Davos with a name. The maester was the first to speak. "You stand before Wyman Manderly, Lord of White Harbor and Warden of the WhiteKnife, Shield of the Faith, Defender of the Dispossessed, Lord Marshal of the Mander, a Knight of the Order of the Green Hand," he said. "In the Merman's Court, it is customary for vassals and petitioners to kneel." Lord Marshal of the Mander. That’s how powerful they were.

Really now!? I’ve been quoting the book and even dictionaries to point out there is some(rather manty) leeway and inconsistencies and yet you just go “so hey the vague thing you quoted and pointed out with proof to be vague just now is solid as rock!” And when being called on it just flat out deny it and even accuse me. As for your “ideological position of sort” Crow calls the Raven black, a white Raven, even. I am not the one going around all northman like, taking on the name Free Northman and even naming my second account Free Northman reborn. Some ideological position I must be in, as opposed to, well, you. And I’m sure members older than me can attest to that, Varys who frequents this topic for starters. Has it occured to you that 800 of 4000 is not too much lower a percentage than 500 among 2000. You know, the 500 frey Knights among the 2000 Roose brought back to North. Nor is it too much lower than 5000 among 20000, the host Robb took south. Yet Theon calls it majority foot and yet doesn’t make a single remark on neither the Frey contingent nor the original host. Even RW numbers are wrong and too obvious note to notice and yet you can’t admit that perhaps there’s some inconsistencies when it comes to Boltons. Again, obvious proof below, please explain this to me as well, tell me how wrong I am and can’t just accept the text for ideological reasons. Now explain the above to me. Where are all those thousands of men and horse Robb brought? There are just three feast tents, as Freys said, each seating hundreds and one filled with Karstarks, who weren’t with Robb, Umbers and Clansmen from the mountains, who also weren’t with Robb. If even this is obvious proof is not enough to convince you then I don’t know what can. @direpupy Since you say you take somethings with a grain of salt but somethings are right/making sense, please dı take a look at the above and tell me how much sense the above quotes make sense, how to make those numbers work with all our knowledge prior to and post RW.

Only solution that makes at least some sense, even then it’s not answering everything. Robb expected 12000, we know Roose “lost” 2000 on the way. So 10000 men, at least 4500 of them ahorse; Robb’s 3500, Roose’s 500 and that is not including casualties on the road and at least 500 Freys. Remember also Robb mostly brought heavy horse and even Karstark cavalry have 2 horses. Those the above look like 10000 men and thousands of horse? Where are they? Pufft vanished into thin air.

Quotes with vague meanings doesn’t really prove anything, so yeah, not evidence. So in total he has 900 horse returning out of 4000 and Theon calls it most afoot? Wow! Removing fingers must have improved his intelligence significantly or else why wouldn’t he warn his best buddy/foster bro Robb that his host is mostly afoot when going south? Or perhaps it’s the removal of his manly bits so he started to think of other things besides ladies. So all those clansmen, Umbers, Locke men, Flint men and many others Roose has brought number a meager 200, some calculation you gor there! Don’t even say Umbers may be Greatjon’s, Arya saw a camp with hundreds of horse and thousands of men, it’s obviously Roose’s camp. Robb and Roose combined has 4000 cavalry and 3000 infantry. If you consider the fact heavy cavalrymen own 2 horses, that’s more horses than men, even. Sorry but no. Also I’d prefer @Ranto answer my question in the previous post, as I believe he’d do so with a more logical approach. If he doesn’t, well, it should be telling that because it couldn’t be answered. GRRMs numbers are all over the place, just the fact Arya saw just a few thousand men and some hundreds when she should’ve seen around ten thousand with horseman making around half of it should be more than enough proof of it. @direpupy If you read what I wrote, in this post and the previous ones, it should occur to you something’s wrong with the numbers and if you read all the discussions regarding military stuff, you would take notice how FNR likes to give huge numbers to North and especially the Boltons.

You don’t think Maege ferried her horse on poleboats do you or that they used fishing boats to carry men to Skagos to put down the rebellion? Northern lords Obviously still have some ships, it’s just that Starks do not have a fleet mighty enough to take the fight to Ironborn or the Andals.

Smuggle Grampa Rick out of Skagos dimension.