Ned's darker side (Tinfoil)

[Dc Castillo]

I was just reading some of the theories of Jon's parentage and I thought of a sort of out there and uncharacteristic theory about Ned.

Going along with the theory that Jon is the son of Brandon and Ashara, that would make Jon the rightful heir to Winterfell, not Ned.

What if Ned kept Jon's parentage a secret because he wanted to step out of his brother's shadow to be the Lord of Winterfell.

 

I understand this doesn't sound like Ned and I have no evidence to back this up, I just wanted to see what are some of your thoughts.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Doesn't work. Brandon was already a year dead when Jon was conceived. Even if Aerys allowed Ashara conjugal visits during the three to six months he was imprisoned before being murdered, there is no way for an 21-month-pregnancy.

[Guest jasonothegreat]

Also from my understanding it was Ned who was infatuated with Ashara not Brandon, Brandon was already married to Catelyn Tully by this time as well. While this is intriguing it doesn't really fit.

[oopeed]

1 hour ago, jasonothegreat said:

Also from my understanding it was Ned who was infatuated with Ashara not Brandon, Brandon was already married to Catelyn Tully by this time as well. While this is intriguing it doesn't really fit.

Brandon never married Cat... He was on his way to get married when he got notice of Lyanna's abduction and turned for KL instead.

But regardless of who was into whom, Brandon was long dead before Jon was conceived. The N+A=J hypothesis that some nobles tend to believe is only supported by the fact that the boy was born in the surrounding weeks to the event of Ned delivering Arthur Dayne's personal effects at Starfall. And Ned was at the time in the region.

And even if Jon was a son of Brandon; he is still a bastard, thus Ned being the lawful Lord of Winterfell... On the contrary it would have been easier for everyone if it was publicly said that he was Brandon's bastard since it wouldn't tarnish Ned's honour but he'd be able to grow with his family without being given the dead eye by Cat.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

I think Robb may have been Brandon's bastard, and that's why Cat hated Jon so much. I think Ned knew and didn't press the issue because of Jon's presence and his and Cat's honor. They'd have looked like a Westerosi Jerry Springer Show.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Flat out impossible.

 

Apart from Robb being conceived at the same time as Jon (actually, he's the one where we get hints about Jon's conception), Catelyn explicitly remembers giving her virginity to Ned.

[Guest jasonothegreat]

On 4/30/2016 at 0:02 AM, Merengues said:

Brandon never married Cat... He was on his way to get married when he got notice of Lyanna's abduction and turned for KL instead.

But regardless of who was into whom, Brandon was long dead before Jon was conceived. The N+A=J hypothesis that some nobles tend to believe is only supported by the fact that the boy was born in the surrounding weeks to the event of Ned delivering Arthur Dayne's personal effects at Starfall. And Ned was at the time in the region.

And even if Jon was a son of Brandon; he is still a bastard, thus Ned being the lawful Lord of Winterfell... On the contrary it would have been easier for everyone if it was publicly said that he was Brandon's bastard since it wouldn't tarnish Ned's honour but he'd be able to grow with his family without being given the dead eye by Cat.

Yes I completely agree on most parts here considering the flow of events I do not support this person's theory. But the N+A=J theory does fit very well with the timeline. Eddard and Ashara were lovers that we know for 100%. We also know that Ashara did get pregnant with Eddard's child. The problem is do we trust Ser Barristan Selmy's say of events and that the child born was a stillborn girl, or Jon Snow. Remember that Jon and Robb are the same age, Eddard might claim Jon is younger but that might not be the case. However... If Jon is a product of R+L it would not only mean that no one has "lied" it would also make the ages of Robb and Jon flow as well. Also one thing. I read a good theory supporting not only R+L but also N+A on this site a few months ago which actually makes coherent sense, Actually making the Prophesy have a sense to it as well concerning Rhaegar's three children

[Tanngrisnir]

16 hours ago, jasonothegreat said:

Yes I completely agree on most parts here considering the flow of events I do not support this person's theory. But the N+A=J theory does fit very well with the timeline. Eddard and Ashara were lovers that we know for 100%. We also know that Ashara did get pregnant with Eddard's child. The problem is do we trust Ser Barristan Selmy's say of events and that the child born was a stillborn girl, or Jon Snow. Remember that Jon and Robb are the same age, Eddard might claim Jon is younger but that might not be the case. However... If Jon is a product of R+L it would not only mean that no one has "lied" it would also make the ages of Robb and Jon flow as well. Also one thing. I read a good theory supporting not only R+L but also N+A on this site a few months ago which actually makes coherent sense, Actually making the Prophesy have a sense to it as well concerning Rhaegar's three children

Could you please tell me from where you get the 100% certainty that Ned and Ahara where lovers and that she got pregnant with his child?

[Guest jasonothegreat]

On 5/2/2016 at 1:08 PM, Tanngrisnir said:

Could you please tell me from where you get the 100% certainty that Ned and Ahara where lovers and that she got pregnant with his child?

Most of this is speculation until we get a book completely dedicated to the tourney of Harrenhal. What we do know is, At the time of the tourney of Harrenhal Brandon Stark was betrothed to Catelyn Tully, and would've most probably married her in that same expedition to the Riverlands, (As if I am not mistaken, he was going to his wedding when Lyanna was "kidnapped"). We also know that Brandon was also as honour-bound as his brother and was commonly referred to as The Wild Wolf, while his brother was known as The Quiet Wolf (Eddard). We know that Lord Eddard was more introverted than his brother. We also know that Lord Eddard and Lady Ashara only danced after Brandon referred Lady Ashara to Lord Eddard, and that for good ol' Ser Barristan Selmy "The Bold"- " might she have looked to me instead of Stark? " This is him referring to Ashara's lover, A Stark, Who couldn't be Honour-Bound Brandon as he was already betrothed and who also loved another (Lady Barbrey Ryswell), As well the Wolf pup Benjen was fairly young during the Tourney of Harrenhal. Leaving the only possible Stark for her to have an infatuation with was Lord Eddard

[Jewel]

Jon is clearly end game material. Him being a bastard son of Brandon and Ashara or Ned and Ashara just wouldn't be interesting. He's clearly more important than that. His parentage has been too much of a mystery and brought up too many times for it to turn out to be as dull as that. 

Also, Ned is too honorable to do such a thing. Not only that, but Jon would still be a bastard- therefore he wouldn't have any rights whatsoever, ruling out that he would be the heir to Winterfell.

[MakeThemBurn]

6 hours ago, Jewel said:

 His parentage has been too much of a mystery and brought up too many times for it to turn out to be as dull as that. 

There's one person who's past is a bigger mystery: Daenerys. Her story is filled with little clues about the importance of her past: the lemon tree, the red door, "when I look back I'm lost", "remember who you are" and GRRM keeps banging our heads with it. Her visit in the House of the Undying cemented the notion that R+L is D. She has all these visions of House Stark and Rhaegar and Lyanna. Everyone has assumed they are about Jon. Why? Why would her visions be about him? It makes no sense. In one of them Rhaegar looks directly at her when talking about a third child yet no one picks it up because he talks of a prince and she's a female. Everything in Dany's story makes perfect sense once we realise she's a half-Stark. That is what the visions of the House of the Undying were about. That is why her past is a one giant question mark.

I don't know have a theory on who Jon's real parents are but they aren't Lyanna and Rhaegar. Luckily so. The "poor bastard is the son of a prince" is such a cliché and that's why so many have fallen for it. Because it's the most obvious one. Personally, I find Jon's story much more interesting after realising R+L=J is a giant red herring. It also adds more mystery to Ned's character. Let's face it, he has been quite a good character in a story of grey characters. I wouldn't find it far-fetched if he indeed had a darker side.

[Jewel]

19 minutes ago, MakeThemBurn said:

There's one person who's past is a bigger mystery: Daenerys. Her story is filled with little clues about the importance of her past: the lemon tree, the red door, "when I look back I'm lost", "remember who you are" and GRRM keeps banging our heads with it. Her visit in the House of the Undying cemented the notion that R+L is D. She has all these visions of House Stark and Rhaegar and Lyanna. Everyone has assumed they are about Jon. Why? Why would her visions be about him? It makes no sense. In one of them Rhaegar looks directly at her when talking about a third child yet no one picks it up because he talks of a prince and she's a female. Everything in Dany's story makes perfect sense once we realise she's a half-Stark. That is what the visions of the House of the Undying were about. That is why her past is a one giant question mark.

I don't know have a theory on who Jon's real parents are but they aren't Lyanna and Rhaegar. Luckily so. The "poor bastard is the son of a prince" is such a cliché and that's why so many have fallen for it. Because it's the most obvious one. Personally, I find Jon's story much more interesting after realising R+L=J is a giant red herring. It also adds more mystery to Ned's character. Let's face it, he has been quite a good character in a story of grey characters. I wouldn't find it far-fetched if he indeed had a darker side.

There is way too much evidence against R+L=D. 
 

There were multiple witnesses during Dany's birth. The whole castle was full of people.
There's a reason she's called Stormborn- she literally was born during the massive storm that destroyed the Targaryen fleet.
Dany is younger than Jon. Lyanna would've already been dead before she was born.

She also doesn't just have visions about House Stark and Rhaegar in the House of the Undying. She has visions of many things, the war of five kings, the Baratheons, the Greyjoys.

Also the whole kingdom and beyond knew Rhaella was pregnant. 

R+L=J is only obvious because it's a theory that's been around for as long as the books exist. 

[MakeThemBurn]

14 minutes ago, Jewel said:

She also doesn't just have visions about House Stark and Rhaegar in the House of the Undying. She has visions of many things, the war of five kings, the Baratheons, the Greyjoys.

As well as I cam remember, and I might be wrong about this, she only saw things regarding other Houses when they had a direct link to her. For instance during the "slayer of lies" -part she saw Azor Ahai Stannis, which would imply that she is Azor Ahai and thus slaying Stannis' lie. But there a tons of references to the Starks without a link. She witnesses red wedding where Robb looks at her with appealing eyes. Why would he do that? As a Targaryen she hates Starks. Why would she see that? She had nothing to do with those incidents. But it's all very sad if she indeed was looking at her relatives being slaughtered. And she smells Lyannas blue roses. Again, why? It's a very Stark heavy chapter.

Dany is called Stormborn because someone was given birth to that day in Dragonstone. Someone who's place Dany could have taken. We haven't been given any solid eye witness stories of what happened to that child. Could have been a stillborn. And Viserys was just a little boy. Also, I'm not that concerned on the timeline considering the only person who knows how old Jon is, is Ned and with Dany it might be no one considering all the people in her past have died. Neither one of these characters have a solid backstory.

As far as Jon goes, I'm hoping he turns out to be Robert's bastard. I have no proof on this, though. I just think the season/book 2 storyline of Cersei having Robert's children killed so that they don't pose a threat and Gendry being shipped off would make great sense if Jon was actually a Baratheon. At least for now that whole plot has been left out in the air and such a revelation would be much bigger that Jon being Rhaegar's son in my opinion. It would also add a nice touch to the bond between Jon and Stannis.

[Jewel]

9 hours ago, MakeThemBurn said:

As well as I cam remember, and I might be wrong about this, she only saw things regarding other Houses when they had a direct link to her. For instance during the "slayer of lies" -part she saw Azor Ahai Stannis, which would imply that she is Azor Ahai and thus slaying Stannis' lie. But there a tons of references to the Starks without a link. She witnesses red wedding where Robb looks at her with appealing eyes. Why would he do that? As a Targaryen she hates Starks. Why would she see that? She had nothing to do with those incidents. But it's all very sad if she indeed was looking at her relatives being slaughtered. And she smells Lyannas blue roses. Again, why? It's a very Stark heavy chapter.

Dany is called Stormborn because someone was given birth to that day in Dragonstone. Someone who's place Dany could have taken. We haven't been given any solid eye witness stories of what happened to that child. Could have been a stillborn. And Viserys was just a little boy. Also, I'm not that concerned on the timeline considering the only person who knows how old Jon is, is Ned and with Dany it might be no one considering all the people in her past have died. Neither one of these characters have a solid backstory.

As far as Jon goes, I'm hoping he turns out to be Robert's bastard. I have no proof on this, though. I just think the season/book 2 storyline of Cersei having Robert's children killed so that they don't pose a threat and Gendry being shipped off would make great sense if Jon was actually a Baratheon. At least for now that whole plot has been left out in the air and such a revelation would be much bigger that Jon being Rhaegar's son in my opinion. It would also add a nice touch to the bond between Jon and Stannis.

A couple of other things. Rhaella was pregnant. They sure would have to rely on that child being a stillborn in order to get that swap going. What happened to that other child? 

Why would Viserys lie about Dany being his sister?  Psychopaths usually only lie for self-importance, lying about Dany being his sister wouldn't serve his interest at all.

Why would Ned try to protect the child by sending them off to Targaryens, the ones Robert wants dead? Surely it would make more sense to keep the child safe somewhere else.

Dany has distinct Targaryen features. We know that half-Targs usually have less distinctive Valyrian features.

Ned remembers having lived a lie for 14 years at the beginning of the first book. Dany is 13 years old at the beginning of the first book.

Ned never calls Jon his son, only his blood. Even when thinking about all of his children he doesn't mention Jon, at all.

Rhaegar would've been dead at the time Dany was conceived. Ned couldn't have taken Dany to Starfall as she wasn't born yet.

Viserys was young, yeah, but you discredit the intelligence of children at the age of 9. Surely he would've known Dany didn't pop out of his mother. 

Tower of Joy happened in 283AC. Dany was born 284AC.

Ned was still actively protecting Jon's identity- why? Because Robert was still alive and on a hunt for the remaining Targaryen children.

Dany being a "secret Targ" would be a waste of a story. She's special. This wouldn't make her special. She's the last pureblood Targaryen alive. She's a dragonrider, which pureblood Targs have been for a long time. She birthed dragons with the help of bloodmagic and having dragon eggs at her disposal. THAT'S what makes her special. 

 

[MakeThemBurn]

Dany is special. I talked about this with an obsessed friend of mine and I think we cracked the mystery surrounding Dany. Rhaegar was obsessed about prophecies and named his children according to the three dragons ("The dragon has three heads") who conquered Westeros: Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya. The name Dany hears Rhaegar scream before he died is not "Lyanna" like everyone's expecting, it's her birth name "Visenya".

All those silly theories about three dragon riders and the way too easy R+L=J -theory are just that, silly. Daenerys is one of the three dragon heads, the other two being Aegon and Rhaenys. That's why the "child of three" is brought up in the House of the Undying. That is why she has all these visions about Rhaegar, Lyanna and the Starks. They are all about the very same thing: Dany is Visenya Targaryen, the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna. The visions are not a collection of information from random characters, they are ALL about her. This revelation ties her to the Starks but it also raises the profile of the newly revealed Aegon. If he is truly is her brother, then he too will have a great part in this story and it would explain why GRRM introduced him so late in the story. We don't need him until we find out that Dany is actually Visenya and Rhaegar managed to fulfill "something" with his children. And if Dany was hidden in Dorne, then Dorne's profile is raised just in time for this revelation. That is why Dorne was written into the story so late.

I'm not buying the "timeline". The age difference between Dany and Jon is a matter of months and both have been given birth to under mysterious circumstances. The only POV character we get is Ned and he is only interested in Rhaegar (for the first time in many years) when the topic of Dany pops up. And I'm not buying the importance of "why didn't Viserys say anything"? He was a little boy who grew up with his niece as his sister for many years. They're relatives and he took care of her for so long. Clearly he's fond of her. She's the only family he's got left. It isn't until selling his mother's crown that he becomes bitter and angry. I see only silly little excuses for R+L=J like the timeline or why didn't anyone say anything. When you look at the big elements and the way Dany's prophecies are written, it's perfectly clear that the revelation is something much larger than just Jon being the son of Rhaegar.

I'm not sure about Jon's parentage just yet. That needs another night of brainstorming. But I'm 100% sure that Dany is Visenya, Rhaegar's daughter.

[Jewel]

All the evidence for R+L=J:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/q4bzzo2807r2diz/RLJ%20Quotes%20(Version%204).pdf?dl=0

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_Jon_Snows_parents/

http://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/47116537590/mysteries-of-asoiaf-r-l-j

D&D were asked who Jon Snow's mother was by GRRM when they told him they wanted to make a TV adaptation. They were right. The show is heading towards the R+L=J reveal. Pretty sure they wouldn't change that, and GRRM wouldn't change a thing either even though fans have solved the mystery.

About the timeline, GRRM himself has confirmed the birth years. Not just the POV characters. 

[Lemore]

5 hours ago, Jewel said:

A couple of other things. Rhaella was pregnant. They sure would have to rely on that child being a stillborn in order to get that swap going. What happened to that other child? 

Why would Viserys lie about Dany being his sister?  Psychopaths usually only lie for self-importance, lying about Dany being his sister wouldn't serve his interest at all.

Why would Ned try to protect the child by sending them off to Targaryens, the ones Robert wants dead? Surely it would make more sense to keep the child safe somewhere else.

Dany has distinct Targaryen features. We know that half-Targs usually have less distinctive Valyrian features.

Ned remembers having lived a lie for 14 years at the beginning of the first book. Dany is 13 years old at the beginning of the first book.

Ned never calls Jon his son, only his blood. Even when thinking about all of his children he doesn't mention Jon, at all.

Rhaegar would've been dead at the time Dany was conceived. Ned couldn't have taken Dany to Starfall as she wasn't born yet.

Viserys was young, yeah, but you discredit the intelligence of children at the age of 9. Surely he would've known Dany didn't pop out of his mother. 

Tower of Joy happened in 283AC. Dany was born 284AC.

Ned was still actively protecting Jon's identity- why? Because Robert was still alive and on a hunt for the remaining Targaryen children.

Dany being a "secret Targ" would be a waste of a story. She's special. This wouldn't make her special. She's the last pureblood Targaryen alive. She's a dragonrider, which pureblood Targs have been for a long time. She birthed dragons with the help of bloodmagic and having dragon eggs at her disposal. THAT'S what makes her special. 

 

It would serve his interest because if she was Rhaegars daughter instead of his sister she would have a better claim to the iron throne than him, wouldn't she?

[Jewel]

1 minute ago, Lemore said:

It would serve his interest because if she was Rhaegars daughter instead of his sister she would have a better claim to the iron throne than him, wouldn't she?

Except inheritence laws state that male heirs go before female heirs. Viserys would still have a better claim on the throne, simply for being a man.

[Lemore]

1 minute ago, Jewel said:

Except inheritence laws state that male heirs go before female heirs. Viserys would still have a better claim on the throne, simply for being a man.

Sexist bastards tut tut

[Jewel]

1 minute ago, Lemore said:

Sexist bastards tut tut

Haha, right? Dorne ftw.