The implications of Robb's will to Jon

[estermonty python]

I know there have been threads about Robb's will before, but there's an additional lawyerly wrinkle that I have not seen that occurred to me.

When Ned was taking down Robert's will, he pulled a little legal trick, substituting "Joffrey" with "my trueborn son and heir" or something like that.  This ended up being a total red herring, as the will was torn up immediately thereafter by Cersei.  I don't believe GRRM just creates red herrings for no reason; I think he was simply establishing the basic point that 1) the words in wills matter; but that 2) they only matter insofar as the people in power choose to honor them.  So here's my thought:

What if the language of Robb's will was more vague than he intended?  it could state that Jon is hereby Jon Stark, trueborn son of Eddard Stark, and brother and heir to Robb Stark.  OR, it could simply state that the bastard-born Jon Snow is hereby legitimized and named as the heir to Robb Stark, King in the North.  If the latter is the case, Robb will have unwittingly named Jon as the trueborn heir to Rhaegar Targaryen!

Five living people know the contents of Robb's will: Jason Mallister, Greatjon Umber, Edmure Tully, Galbart Glover, and Maege Mormont.  Three of them are being held prisoner: Mallister, Umber, and Tully.  Glover and Mormont went to find Howland Reed; let's assume they succeeded.  Howland Reed is the only person alive who knows what happened in the Tower of Joy.  Thus, he is conceivably the only person who knows both the contents of Robb's will and the truth of Jon's parentage, and could thus realize that, if the King in the North rebellion were to succeed, one side effect of that secession is that it would make Jon a trueborn Targaryen.  

Armed with that knowledge, the conspirators in Greywater Watch would suddenly realize that their liege lord also has arguably the most viable claim to the IT.  This is some serious shit.  If we extrapolate to suggest that Edmure shared the contents of Robb's will with the Blackfish when he was sent into Riverrun by Jaime to convince him to surrender, our list of conspirators grows to 7.  It's likely, then, that Desmond Grell and Robin Ryger are on their way to the Wall not simply because they have nowhere else to go, but rather on a mission from the Blackfish to win Jon to their cause.  Of course, they wouldn't know the Targ part, just the part about Robb legitimizing him and naming him heir to Winterfell.  

Thus, if the loyal Northmen and Riverlanders were somehow able to seize control of the IT by force, perhaps with the assistance of the Reach (who are Targ loyalists at heart) and/or the Vale, from a legal/technical perspective, anyone who considered Robb King in the North must consider Jon King over all of Westeros (especially if all of the remaining Baratheons wind up dead).

This would also be quite an excellent compromise for those faction of loyal Northmen (i.e., the Manderlys) who want Rickon in Winterfell, not Jon.

I know a conclusion that "Jon should sit the IC" is not exactly new, novel, or exciting, but I do think the legal justification for it is relevant, at least!

[Free Northman Reborn]

The King in the North legitimizing a bastard will carry no weight in the South. The implication of Robb's will, is that it will name Jon as heir to Winterfell, and for plot reasons this has to be revealed prior to Jon being named heir to the Iron Throne, as Rhaegar's son.

So I expect the will to have impact for a limited period, until it is superceded by the revelation of Jon as Rhaegar's heir, which will likely coincide with Rickon and/or Bran's arrival at Winterfell, to take Jon's place.

[daccu65]

57 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The King in the North legitimizing a bastard will carry no weight in the South. The implication of Robb's will, is that it will name Jon as heir to Winterfell, and for plot reasons this has to be revealed prior to Jon being named heir to the Iron Throne, as Rhaegar's son.

I agree.  Nobody outside of the North and the Riverlands recognized Robb as a King.  However, even if nobody recognized Robb's right to legitimize Jon, he had every right to name him as his heir.  At this point, it all comes down to the exact wording of the Will.  If the will simply stated that Jon was Robb's heir, we could have a real succession crisis in the north.  On the other hand, if the will says something to the effect of "Due to the deaths, without issue, of all of Eddard Stark's legitimate children and the loss of Arya Stark and the force marriage to a hostile house of Sansa Stark, I name Jon Snow, bastard child of Eddard Stark, my heir."  Then things change again.  If Rickon and/or Bran reappear, the wording in the will could be argued to invalidate Jon's status as the heir.

Of course, once all is said and done, Jon can simply state that he is not a legitimate lord of Winterfell, as he is sworn to the NW.  Or, he can state that he accepts the title of Warden of the North, and his first act could be to abdicate in favor or Bran and/or Rickon.

It all comes down to the exact words in the will...and if Jon is aware that Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya are all alive when and if he sees it.

 

 

[estermonty python]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The King in the North legitimizing a bastard will carry no weight in the South.

Right I agree with this, all I'm saying is that if the knowledge that Jon is Rhaegar's son spreads, then the Northmen would suddenly have a claim not merely for an independent kingdom, but also to press their advantage south and claim the IT by force.   Perhaps a parallel with Cregan Stark's Hour of the Wolf - the Northmen flee the winter, this time with the Rivermen, whose crops were destroyed in the war, and move south to attempt to seize the throne, because they're going to die if they stay anyway, so why not?

[BanzaiZ]

I personally think the will has all the value of maybe the parchment it was written on. I totally respect your views, but for me there's just too many other legal and practical hurdles for this to be enforced well, if at all.

My main point of contention that Jon has too many stereotypical fantasy hero threads working together for him. Super magical sword given to him by someone who really didn't have the right to give the ancestral sword away in a very contrived fashion, super magical beast, everything falls together just so in order for him to become LC of the Night's Watch (even if he was terrible at the political side of it), the R+L = J theory, and everyone who is falling over themselves to already proclaim him the new King in the North/Iron Throne/AA/PTWP, etc.

And on top of this he conveniently has Robb's will making him his sole heir? *eyeroll*

Practically, the will was rendered moot the moment Robb died. It would have had serious challenges should any of Eddard Stark's trueborn children turn up, and/or Sansa frees herself from the Lannister marriage. Secondly, to them, he's below them all in the line of succession (should the present themselves alive), even if he is legitimized, if R+L=J is true. He's from Lyanna's line, not Eddard's, and he's a great bastard that could hearken back to the Blackfyre Rebellion if any other family sits the IT. Granting him a huge region, while passing over Eddard's trueborn children, sounds like a recipe for a succession crisis and long, drawn out conflicts with different Northern families who could still potentially hold a grudge against everything Jon Snow/Blackfyre represents. Especially if they view it as the rape child of Rhaegar usurping Eddard's kids.

Ultimately, I view it as yet another sign that Robb's independence war was crumbling at its foundation. It was a desperation move, a bit of a dick move, and could have caused major problems down the line... like many of Robb's decisions. This was another thread Robb lost control of, as he unraveled his way to the Twins for a wedding.

[estermonty python]

1 hour ago, BanzaiZ said:

I personally think the will has all the value of maybe the parchment it was written on. I totally respect your views, but for me there's just too many other legal and practical hurdles for this to be enforced well, if at all.

My main point of contention that Jon has too many stereotypical fantasy hero threads working together for him. Super magical sword given to him by someone who really didn't have the right to give the ancestral sword away in a very contrived fashion, super magical beast, everything falls together just so in order for him to become LC of the Night's Watch (even if he was terrible at the political side of it), the R+L = J theory, and everyone who is falling over themselves to already proclaim him the new King in the North/Iron Throne/AA/PTWP, etc.

And on top of this he conveniently has Robb's will making him his sole heir? *eyeroll*

Practically, the will was rendered moot the moment Robb died. It would have had serious challenges should any of Eddard Stark's trueborn children turn up, and/or Sansa frees herself from the Lannister marriage. Secondly, to them, he's below them all in the line of succession (should the present themselves alive), even if he is legitimized, if R+L=J is true. He's from Lyanna's line, not Eddard's, and he's a great bastard that could hearken back to the Blackfyre Rebellion if any other family sits the IT. Granting him a huge region, while passing over Eddard's trueborn children, sounds like a recipe for a succession crisis and long, drawn out conflicts with different Northern families who could still potentially hold a grudge against everything Jon Snow/Blackfyre represents. Especially if they view it as the rape child of Rhaegar usurping Eddard's kids.

Ultimately, I view it as yet another sign that Robb's independence war was crumbling at its foundation. It was a desperation move, a bit of a dick move, and could have caused major problems down the line... like many of Robb's decisions. This was another thread Robb lost control of, as he unraveled his way to the Twins for a wedding.

Fair enough.  I don't think there's a case to be made for him to claim both the IT and Winterfell.  I do think, though, that the Northern houses need something to rally around, and an excuse to move South, and Jon could provide that. 

[Blade of Sunlight]

Robb's legitimizing anyone would carry zero weight in the south, in the North it might be useful should Jon need to rally the Northen lords, but if he finds out any of his siblings are alive I doubt he will effectively usurp any of them.

If R+L=J is true, and they accept his legitimization (this is a big if), then Jon's claim would still be behind Aegon, Dany's claim effectively is her dragons, which make her more of a Targ than anyone in the las 150 years.

The other thing is I doubt Jon would be even interested in enforcing this claim, the Others are coming and the South is in a state of war already, the North is mostly spent and in winter, so are the riverlands and the Vale alone (should Sansa support him) is not enough, it is possible we get a Winter wolves situation (but going out to die when the Others are coming isn't the best strategy).

In essence they only use I see for the will is a help to rally lords to take out the Boltons and defend the Wall, but the former they would do anyway, and after an eyewitness account they would do the latter as well.