Thoughts on Daynes

[Ser Walton]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

I think this symbolism is just too inconsistent. Lyanna is fire, but so is Rheagar, so where does the ice come in? The fire symbolism is just so thoroughly Targaryen that I think it would be sloppy to apply it to Lyanna just this one time.

I'm really leaning towards this particular exchange being a foreshadow of Jon and Ygritte. Right after the paragraph quoted above, Jon warms his hands at the fire and describes it as "warmer than a kiss". It's just not totally obvious because it's Jon who is the maid. He "stole" her when he took her captive at the Skirling Pass, and then they consummated the relationship. That's a wildling marriage.

 

All good points, which could also elude to his parent Wildling marriage. It describes Rhaegar "stealing" Lyanna and consumated the relationship. I'm not being inconsistent. Lyanna is nothing but ice up until she is married, and then she is still ice but also fire by marriage, another bride by fire just like Dany. Most things in these books have multiple and layered meanings, that only become obvious way later on. It still fits the symbolism. Take for example this, which proves that new books give new meanings, with layers of depth :  Theons 1st or 2nd line is somehing along the line's of "stupid hodor, at least he knows his name". Initially this just shows his sarcasm and wit, and eagerness to belittle others. In book 5, we learn that he knows his name is Reek. And his comment about Hodor is full on irony. His final chapter as Theon in ADWD shows that he knows he is The on again, giving the Hodor comment a bit of a redemption....he learned a lesson. More to come I'm sure.   

What you're calling sloppy is me having a broader scope I think. I must repeat that most of this is off the top of my head, but I am more than versed in the books. Read the physical 3 times, and listened to the audio 5 and counting, plus several years of forum use here, which is beyond illuminating.  Not bragging, just pointing out that what you say is accurate, but also fits within my bigger idea. 

[cgrav]

I can see it working as a gender inversion of the Lyanna/Rheagar "ice and fire" theme, just not as Lyanna represented by fire specifically. It's an early instance of the main theme, with fire being presented as an object of desire for Jon, and the ice/fire coupling.

Not totally related, but also I was just searching the text for fire examples in Jon's POV and was amused by this "Mance" hint drop in Jon's first GoT chapter: 

Quote

A singer was playing the high harp and reciting a ballad, but down at this end of the hall his voice could scarcely be heard above the roar of the fire

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

18 hours ago, Ser Walton said:

she is close to Mance's inner circle

Was she?

18 hours ago, Ser Walton said:

Mance's inner circle, thus having some insider knowledge.

So you believe that Mance knew that Halfhand was Arthur?

18 hours ago, Ser Walton said:

wouldn't Surefire be a great bastard name for confirmed Targ lines?)

Jon is most probably trueborn.

18 hours ago, Ser Walton said:

Clearly she knows SOMETHING because she knows that Jon Snow knows NOTHING. 

Is this a try to be funny?

[Ser Walton]

20 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

1.Was she?

2.So you believe that Mance knew that Halfhand was Arthur?

3.Jon is most probably trueborn.

4.Is this a try to be funny?

1.  I believe so, but you are correct that it's a lep I'm making, albeit logical based on her part in the story.

2. Well, yes. But only if Mance = Rhaegar.  That is the basis of my OP.

3. Agree that 100%, I was not saying anything about Jon tho. I said we as forum readers could use that moniker, not Jon.....quite a leap that you made as well.

4. Not at all. I mean it literally. I'm just clever at my wording. Sometimes I think the boards need to take a chill pill, new ideas are usually cast out by the better known posters without much thought. Clearly you are not open to possilites that you don't like, as opposed to having an open mind. No one (not Arya) would ever had believe me if I said Theon would be Reeked in ACOK, but 3 books later he was. 

[Asshai Backwards]

Ser Walton,  

I said "Prince Rhaegar/Mance Rayder" in my head many times so many times it feels like it should be completely obvious.  Not saying it is true, but I have a hard time believing otherwise.  And I think Arthur Dayne as QH is some of the most compelling evidence.  It seems like most people who refute it always come back to the same points of evidence:

--He was an orphan who grew up on the wall.  That, is precious little backstory, one that hasn't been corroborated by an eyewitness.  Not one brother mentions knowing Mance personally as a child, only after he was an adult already in the NW.

--He died on the Trident.  Somebody in Rhaegar's armor died on the Trident, but his body was conveniently burned.  Not that that even means much, there are plenty of instances of heads on spikes whom everyone (in world) believed to belong to the wrong body.

As far as Quorin, he has even less backstory.  The greatest ranger in the Watch, and there is no story at all.  Not "he was a peasant wrongly accused of poaching" or "he was a second son of a minor nobleman," or even "he was rumored to be a bastard Targaryan."  Nothing.

I suspect he was stationed at the Shadow Tower to help hide his identity, but rarely was there.  instead, he was always out ranging, serving as the (half)Hand of the King-Beyond-the-Wall.  Which meant he primarily spent his time hunting down windings that opposed Rhaegar's attempt to unite.  He was just finishing up with the last holdouts before meeting up with Jon.

Jeor Mormont seemed to be deferring to QH all along, as if he was at the Fist at Quorin's bidding.  Of all the ranger's we met, Quorin seems by far the most capable and respected-why wasn't he Lord Commander?  Remember, you don't run for the office-Jon didn't.  Perhaps the opportunity never arose, but why not even First Ranger?  Because he had more important things to do, that's why.  Business of the King.

Of course, at other times, I've convinced myself Jeor Mormont is Gerald Hightower.  Old Bear/Old Bull.  Mormont as bastardized French, to mean More Mountain/High Tower?  I'm not sure, but the whole Longclaw thing doesn't add up.  Mormont knew who Jon was all along, I think, and the whole point of taking the ranging was to insure Jon was safely delivered to Mance.  Then things went bad...

I don't consider this very tinfoilly at all, though most must.  However, here is a little tinfoil:  Quorin is Coldhands. My tenuous evidence:  They both wear a scarve.  I'm not positive on the timeline, but it seems like CHands appears at right about the time Hhand departs.  It's a Star Wars thing--as Obi-Wan said, "if you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."  Hell, maybe Quorin was already some kind of half-wight, and he never did go south of the wall.  As far as the text goes, he's never seen or talked about anywhere but north of the wall.  His first job was to get Jon to Mance, and his second job was to get Bran to the Crow.

Anyway, this whole theory seems so spot on to me, but apparently not to most.  I like to think, as you alluded to or mentioned, that Martin made a deal with the show runners to kill off Mance, in order to heighten the surprise.