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Free folk Daemon

Is Varys a Blackfyre?

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4 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I certainly agree that Aegor would be likely to marry off a daughter of his to Daemon or one of the male heirs - for the honour of his daughter being the "Blackfyre Queen" and potentially the Queen of Westeros.

With Haegon it is less likely considering that Calla would have been only a few years older than Haegon - in addition, it seems that Bittersteel did not yet marry Calla Blackfyre (likely due to her tender age) while Daemon was still alive. It would have happened in exile (if it did happen at all, which I think it did) and possibly only in the last years of the 2nd century. That would make Bittersteel's oldest child - be it son or daughter - to be born around the same time as Aemon, Daella, or Egg.

Even if the oldest was a daughter it is not very likely that Haegon Blackfyre married her - however, it is possible that one of the younger (or perhaps even the youngest son of Daemon Blackfyre) ended up marrying Bittersteel's oldest daughter. After all, Daemon's youngest son could very easily have still been an infant or toddler in 196 AC.

But Haegon is ideally suited to marry one of his sisters. We don't know how many there are.

Daemon III would then have likely married one of Bittersteel's younger daughters (assuming he had multiple daughters), say, a woman born in the later 210s.

It seems that Daemon III wasn't that old when his father died, considering that he needed Bittersteel to crown him a year after the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. If had been a man grown when his father died he would have most likely done that all by himself - and immediately after his father's death.

4 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Never seen that one before, very cool idea which sounds plausible B)

It would also be a nice twist on the whole blood oath thing. Yeah, it could be simply a figure of speech - or they may have cut their hands in some manly bonding ritual. Or it was an oath sealed in blood via a marriage.

The Ironborn tend to travel far in their youth, and Torwyn Greyjoy may have met with Bittersteel in Tyrosh, taking a wife there whose name and identity was then concealed back in Westeros.

4 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

We might even see some Blackfyre/Greyjoy interaction in a future Dunk and Egg novella, considering the Blackfyre importance in TSS and TMK, as well as the stories of Duncan and Aegon helping fight against Ironborn raiders - perhaps George has been hinting at some union all along.

The story in Winterfell is supposed to revolve around the situation there, not the Ironborn thing. I actually expect King Aerys I and Bloodraven crush Dagon Greyjoy in the end. The Starks and Lannisters fight them off, but there is - at this point - no reason to believe they defeated Dagon. And with the victory at Whitewalls the Iron Throne should have the time and resources to deal with the Ironborn.

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Assuming there were eligible Blackfyre bachelors that weren't killed in the first few rebellions or fighting in Essos, I wonder if the family would have preferred to keep the bloodline pure or to ally with powerful houses in the Free Cities, especially Tyrosh and Lys, as well as Myr and Pentos? 

Certainly likely with the lesser, more insignificant sons. Aenys Blackfyre could have had some Tyroshi wife. Or the nameless sons. But the Blackfyres who were supposed to sit the Iron Throne should have behaved like Targaryens. And the incest thing is a necessary part of that.

And in general I'm more inclined that they ended up marrying spare daughters to outsiders than accepting outsider wives for the male Blackfyres. Also keep in mind that these guys were landless exiles and quickly devolved to the level of sellswords. Chances are not that high that many important people in Lys or Volantis wanted to marry the sons of a dead bastard.

In Tyrosh they may have had some success due to Rohanne's family, but I don't think it likely that they were prominent elsewhere.

Illyrio's Pentos connections likely comes from later unions on the sellsword level when the Golden Company travels around. Bittersteel's sons and sons-in-law are not unlikely to have fought in the Golden Company.

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3 hours ago, Euron Lannister said:

i know, but a real trgaryen by name of a non bastard line would be much more interesting imo

I think the whole point of (f)Aegon (and, for that matter, a certain other character who may or may not be a legitimate or not son of Rhaegar), though is to demonstrate that a.) what people believe is what matters, and b.) that people can accept a fake and that said fake might turn out to be perfectly suited to rule is to demonstrate that birthright is a really dumb way to determine government.

tl;dr: If Aegon is the real thing, there isn't much to make of that except one more rival for Dany whose claim is arguably better.

Varys isn't invested in him because he's the real thing; his point is that Aegon has been raised to understand that his duty to his people is more important than his right to rule (although I think what Team VI actually proved was that if you raise someone to expect the throne because he or she is the rightful heir (whether or not this is actually true), then it doesn't matter whether you train them in chivalry and prerogative or responsibility and hardship, you're going to end up with an entitled little shit who only takes the advice he likes). And that makes me doubt Aegon is a dragon of any color.

Varys shouldn't need to be, either, but, I don't know, there has to be SOMETHING that got him so invested in the Iron Throne and the fate of the people of the Seven Kingdoms. Blackfyre ties would account for it, I suppose. I can't help thinking, though, that his goal isn't to put a Blackfyre on the throne, so much as someone who is worthy of it for better reasons than that he is the eldest male in the direct line of the last guy to sit there.

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On 4/17/2018 at 10:34 PM, Therae said:

I think the whole point of (f)Aegon (and, for that matter, a certain other character who may or may not be a legitimate or not son of Rhaegar), though is to demonstrate that a.) what people believe is what matters, and b.) that people can accept a fake and that said fake might turn out to be perfectly suited to rule is to demonstrate that birthright is a really dumb way to determine government.

tl;dr: If Aegon is the real thing, there isn't much to make of that except one more rival for Dany whose claim is arguably better.

Varys isn't invested in him because he's the real thing; his point is that Aegon has been raised to understand that his duty to his people is more important than his right to rule (although I think what Team VI actually proved was that if you raise someone to expect the throne because he or she is the rightful heir (whether or not this is actually true), then it doesn't matter whether you train them in chivalry and prerogative or responsibility and hardship, you're going to end up with an entitled little shit who only takes the advice he likes). And that makes me doubt Aegon is a dragon of any color.

Varys shouldn't need to be, either, but, I don't know, there has to be SOMETHING that got him so invested in the Iron Throne and the fate of the people of the Seven Kingdoms. Blackfyre ties would account for it, I suppose. I can't help thinking, though, that his goal isn't to put a Blackfyre on the throne, so much as someone who is worthy of it for better reasons than that he is the eldest male in the direct line of the last guy to sit there.

Great point. I'm pretty sure too GRRM is demonstrating that birthright is a terrible method of determining government.

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On ‎4‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 1:45 PM, Free folk Daemon said:

Or a Brightflame.

So true . Here a piece of tinfoil strait from my hat . There are other Valyrian houses besides those of Targaryen .

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On 4/16/2018 at 12:04 PM, Lord Varys said:

Come to think of it - if George really wanted to surprise us with the twist of dragonriding Greyjoys (Euron, Victarion, etc.) without making Dragonbinder do the trick, there is a chance that a daughter of Bittersteel's and Calla's (or another 'Blackfyre girl') ended up marrying this Torwyn Greyjoy chap who ended up swearing a blood oath to Bittersteel and breaking it (likely during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion). If that was the case Quellon Greyjoy could have had a Blackfyre mother, which would give Euron and Victarion (and Balon's children) a strong potential to claim a dragon.

I don't think anybody came up with that possibility at this point. But since chances are not that bad that Euron ends up being that stone beast breathing shadow fire - and as such perhaps even a weird evil promised prince/savior pretender - such a plot development could actually work rather well and would figure in nicely with the overall secret blood ties thing that creeps into the story in the later novels.

I really like this as well as the Brightflame possibility or even a maternal line of alienated Targs: Daenora was still of child-bearing age when Aerion died. The history gives no indication where she went after her husband died. Maybe she was sent away from King's Landing to remarry, as Tywin tried to do with Cersei. If she went to the Iron Islands, there could have been a lot of half-Targ descendants who were angered when Maegor was passed over.

In another recent thread, it occurred to me that Aeron inadvertently killing his brother Urrigon is similar to Prince Maekar Targaryen inadvertently killing his brother Prince Baelor. So the Dunk & Egg storylines could offer more foreshadowing, if you're right about a Greyjoy / Targ parallel.

Aeron pouring seawater on Theon's head as he kneels is also like Aegon making Thorren Stark bend the knee, for what it's worth.

I also think that the name Asha could be linked to Targaryens - or a clever allusion to what is left when a Blackfyre or Brightflame burns out. House Ashford seems to be a metaphor for the Targaryen dynasty, with the Tourney at Ashford Meadow a roadmap for the succession from King Daeron II to Aegon V. I bet the Asha = Esgred interlude, and the name of her ship, Black Wind, offer some additional clues. As Esgred, Asha pretended to be the wife of a shipbuilder. If ships are metaphorical dragon eggs, this could be another Targ allusion.

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