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total1402

The Old Bears last wish. Reasonable?

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So the old bear says that he forgives his son and wants Sam to tell Jorah to take the black and join the Nights Watch. In this way Jorah can atone for his crimes of having taken several poachers into slavery. 

 

I had a few issues with this:

* Selling a few poachers into slavery isn't a big enough deal to warrant being sent into the Nights Watch. There are so many more terrible crimes committed by other characters that it makes the notion of him having to fall on his sword over seem almost silly. Compare this to the Hound for example, who has killed children and is by his own admission a monster. Why should he always have the option of taking the black and being exonerated of everything? Its just not comparable. 

* He has more than paid his dues in this regard. Firstly, he helped Dany free all the slaves in Slavers Bay. He was the commander of her army at the Battle of Yunkai. That's a few hundred thousand slaves. Weigh that against one error of judgement and a few poachers. He is also part of the team that opens the gates of Mereen. Plus during ADWD he gets enslaved, is beaten pretty much every day and treated far worse. I mean, hes being punished here a lot worse than in the NW. How is him having him probably all but inherit the position of Lord Commander punishment or atonement?

* It would mean him abandoning Daenerys. In her final chapter, where she has that vision of him and she reflects on all the mistakes shes made. To me that suggests that she kind of does need him as an advisor and they did make a pretty good team despite some problems.

* He already has oaths at the end of Game of Thrones to serve as Danys Queensguard. He does this when the Dragons are born so its a big deal. These have been the real focus of Jorahs arc. Dany questions whether he really sees her as his Queen in Clash and its a recurring problem between the two of them; saying that a Knight wouldn't lie or have kissed her without her leave. This comes up again in Tyrions chapters when he is bartering passage out of Volantis and says that he swore to serve and defend her. To which he is mocked by a character who asks "so you would have me believe that you are the one true Knight of Westeros come to save his Lady?". So its pretty clear that part of his character development is that he sees Dany as the Queen and values her as a ruler and not as a prize for him to win. It would be jarring to randomly drop that once he learns about his fathers last wish.

* A key character trait about Jorah is that hes at his best when he is fighting for a woman. You see this when he managed to make a draw against Jamie Lannister at the Tourney of Lannisport because he had Lynesses favour. Barristan even says that a lesser jouster can often pull a win with a Ladys favour. Plus pretty much everything he does is to impress Dany. So he wouldn't be much use in the Nights Watch where he would have to swear off women.

* His backstory means that he doesn't have any kids. Because hes a character who is all about protecting people, you could picture him being a father (think Kratos, Mr Grumpy). So it would be cruel for him not to have a chance to do that by joining the NW. I mean almost all the Mormont characters have been likable so him having more of them seems like a good thing. Equally, his problems are really that he hasn't found the right woman. One loved him but he couldn't provide for her. The other didn't love him even though he could provide for her. As an aside he didn't take the celibacy oath in GoT when he swore to be Danys Queensguard. ;)

* Much like the Aes Sedai in Wheel of Time, IMO, the Nights Watch is a totally discredited organisation. ADWD literally culminates with Jon recognising the deep problems and its need to change before being murdered by them. Why is Jorah joining a discredited organisation a good idea?

* All the Wildlings are dead or absorbed into the North and if the Others win we all die or make peace with them or we win and destroy them. At that point what would the purpose be of keeping the NW and Jorah joining the institution? 

* Having a character with love life problems decide that he must swear off women and go to a big wall because my Dad tells me to isn't really character development. :D

 

I can see why people like the notion. Its that whole romantic depiction of the North and oh the prodigal son returns after wasting his life on that evil silver haired girl who doesn't even like him. He should go join the good boys on the wall along with all the rest of baby killers and rapists. :D

 

 

 

 

Edited by total1402

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5 minutes ago, total1402 said:

So the old bear says that he forgives his son and wants Sam to tell Jorah to take the black and join the Nights Watch. In this way Jorah can atone for his crimes of having taken several poachers into slavery. 

 

I had a few issues with this:

* Selling a few poachers into slavery isn't a big enough deal to warrant being sent into the Nights Watch. There are so many more terrible crimes committed by other characters that it makes the notion of him having to fall on his sword over seem almost silly. Compare this to the Hound for example, who has killed children and is by his own admission a monster. Why should he always have the option of taking the black and being exonerated of everything? Its just not comparable. 

In Westeros is a very serious crime and Jorah was about to lose his head for it, unless he joins the NW, something he was unwilling to do at that time. Poaching may get you maimed unless you join the NW.

Sandor killed a child who attacked the crown prince, in principle he was acting under orders and is under the protection of the crown. Anyway, Sandor will end in the NW too.

Remember, all crimes are erases when a man joins the NW, even the worst, but not all men are giving the chance to go there.

5 minutes ago, total1402 said:

* He has more than paid his dues in this regard. Firstly, he helped Dany free all the slaves in Slavers Bay. He was the commander of her army at the Battle of Yunkai. That's a few hundred thousand slaves. Weigh that against one error of judgement and a few poachers. He is also part of the team that opens the gates of Mereen. Plus during ADWD he gets enslaved, is beaten pretty much every day and treated far worse. I mean, hes being punished here a lot worse than in the NW. How is him having him probably all but inherit the position of Lord Commander punishment or atonement?

Jeor Mormont doesn't know that and one could argue that Dany (as the rightful queen of Westeros) has already pardoned Jorah for his crimes. So, if she ever gets the IT, Jorah doesn't need to join the NW unless he will

5 minutes ago, total1402 said:

* It would mean him abandoning Daenerys. In her final chapter, where she has that vision of him and she reflects on all the mistakes shes made. To me that suggests that she kind of does need him as an advisor and they did make a pretty good team despite some problems.

Jorah will not join the NW right away, there needs to be some evolution, but there is little doubt he will at some point to fight the Others. Why else Dany will give him the promised Valyrian Steel sword forged in dragonfire?

There are lot of issues with Jorah as character writing and there is little development until the end of ADWD with some hints of it in the last Tyrion chapter and TWOW ones. Basically Jorah has been us ed as a plot device in Dany's plot without giving him space for development beyond creeping on Dany.

The comment made by Jeor is btw foreshadowing where Jorah little arc is heading

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Well I think my last remark addressed that, you're putting far too much emphasis on the Northern part of the storyline. When he's really a very prominent character in Danys arc. He's important because he's important to Dany. Hence why him running off and doing his own thing just doesn't fit.

 

Plot Device? That's a very loaded term. In fact aside from moving Tyrion and some exposition that's really not what most of the material about him pertains to. The rest is characterisation, dialogue and how other people interact with him. I mean Barristan is literally only a POV so we see more of the Battle of Mereen.

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The Night's Watch still have a somewhat respectable reputation in the North, and it's not full of only criminals - there are men there who have no prospects in life or who have too many older brothers to inherit anything, yet.

Jeor is a very honourable man who wants to uphold this reputation, and sees the NW as a way for his only son to win back some honour in his life. Its very reasonable to see this as Jeor's last words, his thoughts drifting to his only son and his family name continuing. 

Jeor likely has no knowledge of what Jorah has been up to since he went north of the Wall around the time Dany's dragons were born and her reputation started to spread. 

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I don't think Jorah will join the NW; he'll probably fight the Others (if he doesn't die sooner while fighting for Dany), but the NW as an institution has nothing to do with his story. If Sam ever tells Jorah about about his father's wish, the impact on Jorah, I think, will be him realizing that his place is no longer on Bear Island. Maege and her daughters have protected the people and honoured their family, and he has no right to just show up and claime the lordship from them, even if he is pardoned.

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Jeor was behind on the news.  

So what will it take to save Westeros, assuming it can be saved?  For the people to cooperate with one another.  That means forgiving old wrongs and it may require setting aside revenge (even justice) in order to get cooperation from everyone.  That can mean the families forgiving each other and individuals forgiving each other, even if they have a legitimate beef with the other guy.  That can mean Jorah and Tyrion gets away with their crimes.  Even Roose gets forgiven because he's a good commander who can lead armies, better than anyone in the north.   It's not justice but survival is at stake.   

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