Littlefinger's Plans

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Well we know you and I never see eye to eye on anything. But you don't make a good case of it, when you argue that "the sending Arya and Sansa away appointment" was delayed off-page without the reader knowing of it.

Having checked things I'd rather say your case is built on pudding by taking Pycelle's claim at face value that it took them two days to get there - Pycelle wasn't there, and Pycelle wants to convince Ned that Robert is dead for sure, insisting that the wounds are already festering, etc.

Him being a second hand source doesn't make him a good source. One can make a case that George may have wanted to stay on page with the ship's departure - but Pycelle's off-hand remark is the kind of thing he overlooks, because that's just there to stress the fact that it took Robert a while to get back, not to weave some intricate tapestry of time line issue for you to uncover and fill with far-fetched speculations about what happened off-page.

The overall issue I have with this fabulous story of yours is just that there is simply no basis for any of the substance to your story. The time line issue doesn't support your idea, it just makes it possible. But it makes a hundred other stories just as possible (and possibly much more plausible).

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The timing references to Robert's accident, the next day being the departure day, and the references telling us beforehand when that departure was were put in and kept in deliberately, as was the noticeable dress by Cersei, which surprised Ned enough to notice it (and he's not the man to pay that much attention to it). To dismiss them as "it was changed off-page" is just negating objective textual evidence in favour of the assumption of a character who is not a direct witness, who has a motive to make Ned believe his assumption.

LOL, Cersei changing off-page is something she would do if she went out in the forest and came back - because that's what highborn people do in this world. They don't walk around sweaty and stinky after a day's ride or more, especially not when they face an enemy/rival. There is no indication that Cersei looks as if she had spent just a day in the forest during the conversation in the godswood, is there?

But why on earth do you think Cersei Lannister of all people has to disguise herself to go out for a ride, if that's what she did? She is the queen, she can do as she please. Eddard Stark is a half-cripple confined to his tower. He cannot intervene personally with anything she does. In fact, now that one thinks of it your entire scenario is ridiculous - Cersei could just pay her dear husband and his party a visit. She is his wife, she has every right to check how is doing on his hunt. There is essentially not the slightest reason for secrecy because, as is easy to understand, this whole thing simply isn't a murder. It is a drunk guy getting himself killed. Cersei could have been right there when it happened and nobody would have suspected her of any involvement.

She would ride out to the forest with a retinue of servants. Would pretend to apologize to Robert for her behavior, would chat with the men in his retinue, would praise the success they had at their manly little hunt ... and she bring them more refreshments (among them more wine) and she would find the time to have a few words with Lancel while nobody is looking.

That is how she would do it if she did it herself and after the hunting party had set out.

And then go back and think about the clandestine meeting - this is something she understands should be private. So she dresses in a way that doesn't really 'disguise' her, but makes her a little less obvious Queen Cersei than her usual wardrobe does. That fits perfectly fine with her meeting with Ned - and only with her meeting with Ned.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

George didn't write those in to confuse us, because most people actually forgot to pay attention to these, just like readers' eyes glaze over at dress descriptions. Your arguments against the timeline references in these instances are no better than readers dismissing timeline and baby-development issues when they claim Jon's older than Robb, Aegon could be swapped with Jon or Dany: they're an inconvenience to the assumption.

Jon is likely older than Robb, actually. Or at least Rhaegar's son is.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

BTW you ignored Cersei's habit of disguising herself as Jaime.

That doesn't figure into the life of adult Cersei Lannister. Preteen Cersei did that, who still looked like Jaime. Adolescent/adult Cersei could no longer do that.

Cersei actually never 'disguised herself'. She just changed clothes with her brother, and pretended to be him. She did nothing to change her face or other visible parts of her body. Later on, she chose an unusual dress, and hid her face beneath hood and cloak - that's obscuring one's identity, not disguising oneself as somebody else.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And while you can argue that Cersei only dresses up for the occasion in the KG tower, her kitchen wench outfit was more than just dress up. There was a disguise purpose to it, because she does not want to be found out consorting with her brother, whereas her brother wants to declare it openly and inform Tommen. So, yes, there is indeed a pattern.

See above. The whole disguise thing leads nowhere in this scenario. Cersei was in need to disguise while meeting Lancel or the party in the forest. In fact, I now feel pretty stupid to actually consider or imagine she would have ever been forced to do something like that. It would make no sense whatsoever.

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

But the attire was never what tipped me off. It was always the timeline references that conflict with Varys' claim to Ned. Varys' claim is conveniently inserted by George to leave the reader with the impression that it's Ned's fault, while the objective facts and what you can deduce from them say otherwise.

There are no 'objective facts' contradicting anything. Varys' claim is as true or false as Pycelle's about the time it took - and neither has been independently verified. If Renly or Selmy had said that it took them two days to bring Robert back you would have a better case ... but that's not what happened.