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Rufats

Westeros MII:TW Mod Units

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From what I'm seeing, Dromons, galleys, war-galleys, galleas', all fit into Westerosi warships. Depending on the look of the Dromons in the game, they may be considered too 'eastern'... and thus leave only the three galley forms.

While *all* the factions build the above galley forms, the Ironborn *and* the Northerners both build longships (in ACoK, the Manderlys and another northern house are ordered to team up to build longships to help counter the Ironborn raiders). Dragon boats are, I'm assuming, larger and more powerful versions of the longship... While I can see the northerners building these as well, there's some argument for limiting them to the Ironborn.

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Sorry 'bout the tangent there, Rufats.

As to the Ironborn infantry:

I think they have the option to recruit smallfolk levies, yes... and likely thralls as well. These would be the dregs of the recruiting, to be done when there was *absolutely* no one else left.

The Drowned Men would be a priestly unit... men in robes with cudgels. Only available in small numbers, and fairly rare. I don't recall there being any great number of them about.

... which reminds me: do we have any control over how many men in a unit? Can we make a recruitable unit with 10 guys in it? Or 5? ... or 1?

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It is possible to change the number of men in a unit, the lowest number I see in a quick glance through the files is 16, but I don't really think there would be a problem having fewer than that, as the unit can take casualties below that number and still exist.

About the 'look' of the ships, you only ever really see them in the recruitment queues when building them, on the world map they all look the same, except that fleets made up of certain types of ships have oars on the little icons.

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What about using say the varagian guard as the top ironborn heavy infintry unit? Can't think of a heavier axe unit off the top of my head. Or anyone else in the Westernos that would use such a unit. The rest sounds pretty good. Also you may not want to throw out all the elite pike units, Dorne is known for favoring spears, and light units in general. The tercios might make a good elite unit for them, seeing as they lack heavy armour.

edit: The jinites might also serve as a good calvery unit for dorne, given their need for decent light cav.

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Re: Naval units

I don't think Ironborn should be given heavy ships. In the books, their naval strength is based on numbers, not on the power of individual ships. They should only be able to build longboats and longships, which should be weaker than galleys, but also *much* cheaper. Also, they'll start the game with a huge fleet, and they'll have a port in every settlement, which will allow them to produce ship incredibly quickly. However, one-on-one, a galley is stronger than a longship.

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Gorn -

While it's true that when the Ironborn captains sailed to the Kingsmoot at Old Wyk, they sailed their longships... and when Theon was sent to reave the Stony Shore, he took longships.

... However, I was under the impression that the Iron Fleet is not made up of Longships, but of galleys and the like. In other words, the Ironborn took longships as their personal ships, but for war, they used galleys.

I could be wrong, of course.

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You're probably right; it's just that I haven't imagined that Greyjoys have many galleys.

Here's how I imagine navies (of course, people who actually work on this probably have their own ideas):

Level 1 port: allows player to build longboats and longships. Greyjoys can have special units, "Reaver Longships", instead of regular ones, which would be cheaper and stronger than regular ones, and they would have *very* low upkeep cost. Most coastal towns would have this type of port at the beginning.

Level 2 port: allows player to build galleys. Cities with level 2 ports: Pyke, Ten Towers, Seagard, Shield Islands, Sunspear, Storm's End, Estermont, Driftmark, White Harbor, Lannisport (?), Gulltown (?). Lannisport and Gulltown could go with level 3 instead.

Level 3 port: allows player to build heavy galleys and dromonds. Dromonds would cost much more and would take longer to build, in order to discourage mass production. Cities with level 3 ports: King's Landing, Dragonstone, Arbor, Oldtown. Nobody would have any dromonds at the beginning, since we've first heard of them in book 4.

Starks would start with a single longboat on Bear Island (to ferry troops to mainland) and a couple of longships in White Harbor. Arryns would have a galley or two in Gulltown. Stannis would have a large force of galleys and heavy galleys in Dragonstone port, as well as a small force of Salador Saan's galleys somewhere in the Narrow Sea. Joffrey would have several galleys and heavy galleys. Renly would only have a few longships, in order to transport troops from Estermont and Tarth. Dorne would have a couple of galleys. Tyrells would have a large force at Arbor, another medium force at Oldtown, and a small force at Shield Islands. Lannisters would have a few galleys at Lannisport. Tullys would have a galley and a few longships at Seagard. Greyjoys would have a huge force, mostly consisting of "Reaver Longships", as well as a few galleys (they could start with a single galley in the Narrow Sea, transporting Euron and his bodyguard unit ;) ).

Any thoughts?

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I didn't find much in AFFC about Ironborn units, except:

One of his drowned men handed him robe of heavy roughspun dyed in mottled greens and blues and greys, the colors of the sea and the Drowned God...

...Another presented him with a driftwood cudgel.

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Gorn -

Sounds about right... though I'd leave Dragonstone as a Tier 2 port, but I'd allow Tier 2 ports to build heavy galleys... I don't think Stannis had that much access to timber or shipbuilding to construct dromonds. Stannis would start as you described, with galleys and heavy galleys. I'd give the Sallador Saan mercenary unit either heavy galleys or a dromond.... or perhaps a "Lysene Galley" special unit... somewhere in between. Saan's ships were *very* good, but Stannis' admiral didn't trust him, so Saan was left patrolling the rear.

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The only way I might see that, is if you considered reaving to be 'joyriding'... I'm not suggesting that the longships were there for personal transportation only... rather that longships are light and swift, well suited to raiding and such. However, I doubt that they're well suited to ship-to-ship combat, beyond preying on lightly armed merchants. Galleys, on the other hand, are ponderous and slow, but big and level, capable of carrying ballistae and other heavy weaponry... great for naval battles.

My assumption was that the Ironborn used the longships for many things, and they surely made up a good portion of the Iron Fleet... but that the Ironborn also had galleys in the Iron Fleet... otherwise, how could they hope to contest the seas against the war galleys of Westeros? Besides, how could you possibly mount a ram on a longship? I can't imagine how the design allows it... and we know that some of the Ironborn ships (the Kraken and the Golden Storm) had rams...

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It is possible to change the number of men in a unit, the lowest number I see in a quick glance through the files is 16, but I don't really think there would be a problem having fewer than that, as the unit can take casualties below that number and still exist.

About the 'look' of the ships, you only ever really see them in the recruitment queues when building them, on the world map they all look the same, except that fleets made up of certain types of ships have oars on the little icons.

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Oh, not to worry... I wasn't thinking about making small units of Drowned Men... rather other possibilities, like trying to model small groups of 'known' characters. I doubt it'll be useful though.

Otherwise, I agree with you down the board... small numbers of two-hander units, mixed units for the Ironborn, etc.

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In both Shogun and Rome TWs, religious units had morale effects on the armies. For instance, warrior monks lowered the morale of Buddhist faction units attacking them, druids could chant to increase allies' morale, wailing women could yell to both increase allied morale and hurt enemies, and so forth. Drowned men, even in units of 12, might be useful if they never broke in combat and either had a morale-boosting aura or the rallying ability of generals.

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Okay... here's the current breakdown of Ironborn units. I've broken them down by unit type. I've included their armament, followed by how commonly these units are available for production (Prevalent - built everywhere from the start... Very Rare - requires certain city/castle size, specific buildings, etc.), and finally a size, indicating how many men are in a unit (Small is several, large is several dozen).

- Infantry

Heavy (Plate and Mail, sword, shield) (Rare) (Small)

Medium Sword (Mail, sword, shield) (Uncommon) (Average)

Medium Axe (Mail, axe, shield) (Common) (Average)

Light Axe (Leather, axe, shield) (Common) (Large)

Light Spear (Leather, spear, shield) (Common) (Large)

Smallfolk Axe (Padded, axe) (Uncommon) (Average)

Smallfolk Spear (Padded, spear) (Uncommon) (Average)

Thralls (Tunic, spear) (Common) (Small)

- Missile

Skirmisher (Mail, axe, javelin, buckler) (Prevalent) (Large)

Archer (Leather, short bow) (Rare) (Small)

- Cavalry

Medium (Mail, axe, shield) (Very Rare) (Very Small)

Light (Leather, axe, shield) (Rare) (Small)

- Generals & Bodyguards

Infantry Type (Plate and mail, sword, shield)

- Siege

Ballistae (Rare)

Catapult (Very Rare)

- Naval

Dhow (Prevalent) [From what I've seen, most fishing boats are likely of this type... we'd want to reduce their combat stats accordingly, however...]

Longship (Prevalent)

Dragonship (Common) [i'm assuming this is an advanced longship]

Galleas (Rare) [i believe this is a light galley]

Galley (Very Rare)

- Special

Drowned Men (Robe, club) (Uncommon) (Small)

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Don't forget that some units are only buildable in cities and others in castles. Cities can usually only build Militias, occasional special faction units, and siege machinery.

Militias tend to vary slightly from Peasants, which are castle units. Since I'm assuming the Smallfolk you listed are the equivelant to Peasants, I'd add Town Militia, Spear Militia and Archer Militia. Maybe a light cavalry militia. And the Drowned Men should come from towns.

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Bazz - I was thinking that the smallfolk units were the *miliitas*... and the thralls were the peasant equivalents.

Two reasons for this: first, ASOIAF doesn't really have militias, that I can tell... but the smallfolk are clustered about towns and cities, so these are the most likely locations for these levies to come about. Thralls, conversely, are kept by knights and lords, mostly... they're the spoils of war, and it's people associated with the castles that go raiding and to war... so thralls should be found in castles, rather than towns. Finally, I don't see how the average Ironborn town could cobble together a cavalry made of smallfolk...

My goal was to identify what the Ironborn *should* have, and then try to assign units to that list. If the list I came up with are the only types of troops the Ironborn can recruit, then we can assign M2TW troop types to that list, e.g.:

Smallfolk Axe = Town Militia

Smallfolk Spear = Spear Militia

Thralls = Peasants

Medium Axe = Hussarls (or whatever...)

etc.

If we start adding "Spear Militia" to everyone, in addition to what the books describe them having, then we're getting away from what the books describe... no?

I'm rambling a bit, so let me consolidate this thought:

My vision of the process here would be to:

1 - Compile a list of the troops we see in each region

2 - Break that list down into specific troop types

3 - Find the M2TW unit that best fits those specific troop types

4 - Modify the assigned M2TW units as needed to tailor them to the ASOIAF troop type

5 - Move on to the next region

I think we've done #1, and I was checking to see if people agree that #2 is complete. If it is, then we can move on to #3...

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Okay, if there's no further suggestions for the list of Ironborn units, I'll move on to the next region of like units: Dorne. I'm not that familiar with the units available in M2TW, so I'll leave the assignments (my step 3) to others. I may chip in from time to time, however, on modding those units for attributes and balance.

Moving on to Dorne...

- Infantry

Medium Spear (Mail, Spear, Shield) (Common) (Average)

Medium Sword (Mail, Sword, Shield) (Uncommon) (Average)

Light Spear (Leather, Spear, Shield) (Prevalent) (Large)

Smallfolk Spear (Padded, Spear) (Prevalent) (Large)

- Cavalry

Medium Lance (Mail, Lance, Shield) (Common) (Small)

Medium Sword (Mail, Sword, Shield) (Uncommon) (Small)

Light Lance (Leather, Lance, Shield) (Common) (Average)

Light Sword (Leather, Sword, Shield) (Uncommon) (Average)

Smallfolk Spear (Padded, Spear, Shield) (Common) (Average)

- Missile

Archers (Leather, Bow) (Common) (Average)

Mounted Archers (Leather, Bow) (Common) (Average)

Javelins (Leather, Spear, Javelin, Shield) (Prevalent) (Large)

Mounted Javelins (Leather, Spear, Javelin, Shield) (Prevalent) (Large)

Smallfolk Javelins (Padded, Spear, Javelin) ( Prevalent) (Average)

- Generals

Cav Type (Plate and Mail, Spear, Shield)

- Naval

Dhow

Longship

Galleas

- Special

?

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