AFTER Harry: Vale Line of Succession?

[Vaegon the dragonless]

51 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Royce Corbray Conflicts:

Qyle Corbray killed by Robar Royce, Lady Forlorn taken.
Jaime (interesting) Corbray one of possible killers of Robar in turn, reclaiming of Lady Forlorn as evidence.

In 37 AC Jonos Arryn killed his brother in an attempt to claim the Vale and reject the Targaryens. His supporters in this have not yet been named but the name Jonos appears subsequently in only the Bracken and Frey families, and Allard Royce led the fight against Jonos Arryn. Ronnel was married to a Stark, possibly had living female descendants but no male heir. Jonos was married to….don’t know, and descendants also unknown. At this point the Corbrays had recently benefited from a Tarth (Targ descent) match so were probably not allied with Jonos against the crown. But Jonos’s allies would have been from zealously Andal families as this was likely a major part of the reason why the rebelled against Ronnel and his Stark wife, as well as the reason for Allard’s defense of Ronnel. 

Gunthor Royce killed Cowyn Corbray in 134
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Arryn_succession_conflict_(134_AC)

 

to be continued tomorrow. Good night.

Yes they was conflict between the Royce and Corbray in the past and I did say so, But the first instance is from the Andal conquest, so a very very long time ago and then they dont have any conflict until 134, that is not really a pattern that would suggest rivalry more profound then 2 important house protecting their interest. Especially compare to the Bracken/Blackwood conflict of which we have at least 5 instance of conflict all after the andal invasion (Stormlord invasion, Ironborn invasion, Dance of the Dragons, First Blackfyre rebellion, Post Robb conflict, with a possible conflit when Otho inherited) .  Also to note in 134 the Blackwood's were on the royalist side with the Corbray against the Royce backed claimant so a traditionnal Royce/Blackwood vs Corbray/Bracken seem further away. 

And Im sorry but there is absolutely no suggestion that the Corbray sided with Jonos, you in fact say it is unlikely. And as far as important Andal house that would oppose the Royce that could House Grafton or House Templeton could also fill that role, in fact we know that the Shett have a strong connection with the Royce and claim Gulltown from the Grafton's so the Grafton's being the biggest opponent of the Royce seems more likely then Corbray's. In actuality we dont even know if Jonos actually had supporter's, since no lord or family is named it is likely that only the garnison of the Eyries supported Jonos but no actual lord. I would also like to add that the name Jonos is also appear in the North, one of the Stark King is named Jonos.

[Hippocras]

9 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

 But the first instance is from the Andal conquest, so a very very long time ago and then they dont have any conflict until 134

You don't seem to be noticing that even though the Royce-Corbray incidents we know about have wide gaps of time between them, those gaps in fact correspond to the large gaps in what we know of the history of the Vale in general. We just do not have a complete history. So it is not years you should be counting, but the ratio of incidents between Royces and Corbrays, to the conflicts that we know about in the Vale in general.

If you do that, you will notice that the succession events with Jonos are actually the only time there was a significant event in the internal history of the Vale where we have no indication that Royces and Corbrays found themselves on opposing sides. On the other hand, we don't actually know that they did not. My point above regarding the 37 AC conflict was that the name Jonos is one to be flagged, having some notoriety in the Vale except perhaps with Jonos sympathizers in connected families and his female line descendants, if any.

Coming back to the conflicts when I get a moment.

[Vaegon the dragonless]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

You don't seem to be noticing that even though the Royce-Corbray incidents we know about have wide gaps of time between them, those gaps in fact correspond to the large gaps in what we know of the history of the Vale in general. We just do not have a complete history. So it is not years you should be counting, but the ratio of incidents between Royces and Corbrays, to the conflicts that we know about in the Vale in general.

That is not completely true tho, and more importantly does not exclusively apply to the Corbray and Royces. The conquest of the Andal saw the Royces fight with almost all the other named andal house like Grafton, Templeton and yes Corbray but mainly against the Arryn's. The next time the Vale see a conflict it is the Jonos usurpation and fratricide, we only know that the Royce put it down with support from the Crown we dont know of any house supporting Jonos and it is implied he did not have wide support and not from any important house. Next conflict is the Dance and the Vale is always spoken has a block not has individual lords so we must assume that it was united during the Dance. After the Dance there is the succession crisis of 134 and yes the Corbray and Royce are on different sides but so are the Graftons. Next time we here of conflict is the Blackfyre rebellion, again the Vale is talked about as a unit, we know that the Sunderlands were Black supporters and that the Vale was not completely united but since no other house of the Vale are told to be Black supporters we just dont know, but since the Corbray have a important character in the battle I would assume that they were with the knights of the Vale, and the Royce are too big to not be mentioned has black supporter's if they were. Finally the last conflict that we know of is Robert's Rebellion, there the Corbray's and Graftons both side with the Targaryen originally before changing sides, and the Royce seem to have been with Jon. So to summit up it seems like there is no real pattern of a Corbray/Royce rivalry, at least not one particularly important, since we have has much cause for a Royce/Grafton rivalry (which could be stronger since they are neighbors and the whole Shett situation). Yes we dont know that much about the internal politics of the Vale but that could be said with all the internal kingdoms and from what we know it seems to me that it is a reach to see a Royce/Corbray rivalry because they have been on the same side just as much as they been on opposing sides.

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

If you do that, you will notice that the succession events with Jonos are actually the only time there was a significant event in the internal history of the Vale where we have no indication that Royces and Corbrays found themselves on opposing sides. On the other hand, we don't actually know that they did not. My point above regarding the 37 AC conflict was that the name Jonos is one to be flagged, having some notoriety in the Vale except perhaps with Jonos sympathizers in connected families and his female line descendants, if any.

I dont get what you are trying to say or imply there, because like a said Jonos is also a name found in the Stark lineage. So we find the name across 3 regions, at different times, in both first men and andal houses. I just dont see what the name Jonos has to do with a possible Corbray/Royce rivalry linked with the Bracken/Blackwood rivalry.

Edited April 20 by Vaegon the dragonless

[Hippocras]

I said in my last two posts that I was not finished. 

Normally the polite thing to do is to wait until someone is finished. An ASOIAF history essay is not compatible with how my weekends work.

[Hippocras]

For the Jonos part of this discussion, we should maybe continue on this new thread I just made.

@Vaegon the dragonless I have made a post there in response to your questions about Jonos.

Edited April 21 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

Ok, so Corbray-Royce dynamics continued. Apologies for the wait and for snapping at you a bit, it is just that research and children in the house are not all that compatible.

@Vaegon the dragonless I hope I answered your question about Jonos and what I was getting regarding his name on the other thread. For our purposes here the point is that the name Jonos as well as his and Ronnel's mother's name, Sharra, suggests a connection to the Riverlands or other region outside of the Vale, and one with antipathy towards the Starks. Jonos Arryn caused a conflict in the Vale and his supporters were killed so the name would not have found popularity there afterwards. But because the name did not come from the Vale originally, but from Sharra's family, it remains in use in its region of origin or possibly in female line descendants of Jonos Arryn.

The coup attempt in the Vale in 37 AC did not exist in a vacuum. The Vale had been involved in conflicts related to House Hoare in the Riverlands just prior to the conquest and the people alive in 37 AC were born of alliances related to that time. Many Houses in the Riverlands were, for at least 200 years, looking for allies elsewhere to fight off their Ironborn oppressors. We know the Hoares were constantly fighting off Valemen and Westermen to defend their holdings. So this is the backstory of how Sharra ended up in the Vale. 37 AC was also one generation after the Vale's fleet was destroyed at Gulltown and the Northmen were sent to the Sisters to put down the rebellion there. Many in the Vale would have seen the involvement of the Starks in the Sisters as an affront given that the Vale and the North fought over the Sisters for hundreds of years. Ronnel Arryn was a minor still during the conquest, probably less than 12 which means in 37 AC any daughters of Ronnel Arryn and his Stark wife would have been in their teens or twenties (daughters because a son would have succeeded him). And the most likely bet is that the eldest and possibly only daughter of Ronnel Arryn was either the wife or the daughter-in-law of Allard Royce.

Within this dynamic then we have the Tarth triplet-Corbray match. Any children of this match would have been born in 15 AC or later as their mother was born shortly after the conquest. She was of Targaryen descent, the niece or granddaughter of Daemon Velaryon who had burned the Vale fleet in 2 BC. Her match with a Corbray makes it likely that the Corbrays were, at that time, allied with those most affected by the events of the conquest, namely Houses Grafton and Sunderland. So the Tarth match would have been a peace-making union and a carrot preventing the Corbrays joining up with Houses Grafton and Sunderland to plot rebellion - after all, the Corbrays are and Andal family based in the North of the Vale, in the region most affected historically by the wars against the Starks. Their natural inclination would have definitely been to resist being ruled by the descendant of a Stark if not for the Tarth match and the favour shown to Gawen Corbray,

Corbrays a short time later fought for Aegon the Uncrowned as did the Royces who were allies of Rhaena Targaryen. This may have been because the Corbrays were angry about Maegor's brutality towards the Faith in the Uprisings, or it may have been because by 42 AC when Maegor stole the throne, the Corbrays and Royces were allied in a peace-making match that was part of the resolution of the events in 37 AC. Whatever the reason, in this instance the two families were on the same side. Then during Jaehaerys's reign Alysanne resumed Targaryen match-making activities making peace unions within regions and weaving together different regions, which would have affected both families.

Jeyne Arryn (granddaughter of Rodrik) became the lady of the Vale in 97 AC at 3 years old. As Yorbert Royce was her Regent he was probably her relative. But Royces were also the main supporters of Arnold Arryn who contested her leadership of the Vale. This is explained by the fact that Yorbert's heir Rhea Royce had no children with her husband Prince Daemon and so after she died Runestone passed to a different branch of House Royce. Joffrey Arryn, Jeyne's chosen successor, may have had some connection to Jeyne's lover Jessamyn Redfort, whose name suggests descent from Jessamyn Manderly in one of Queen Alysanne's matches. Joffrey Arryn may have been Jessamyn's nephew or cousin, and clearly had primarily non-Royce heritage. He may even have been named after Joffrey Doggett - a House whose sigil suggests connections to Houses Corbray and Brax. The Vale succession crisis was probably only resolved with a flurry of match-making in 134-136 AC. These efforts were led by Alyn Velaryon and Benjicot Blackwood.

Rhaena Targaryen's time in the Vale during the Dance is key for the subsequent period. Even though she and Corwyn Corbray had no children, she made many friends and allies during her stay there. Significantly, Rhaena was the daughter of Daemon Targaryen who had so offended House Royce and Jeyne Arryn with his treatment of Rhea Royce. The Royces were unlikely to have counted among Rhaena's friends in the Vale. After Corwyn died Rhaena married Garmund Hightower, a family connected to the Corbrays historically via the Tarth triplets (and probably by various indirect routes ever since). At least one of her 6 daughters would have married into the family of a Vale friend of hers in or after 152 AC. Gwayne Corbray's name suggests descent from House Hightower, and Daemon Blackfyre's treatment of him suggests a degree of kinship.

As mentioned before, the Corbrays may have been hesitant to fight for Daeron II. Their liege lord was fiercely loyal to the King but we know there were conflicts over this within the Vale. Not all of the Vale was initially with their liege. As the reinforcements led by Gwayne Corbray of the Kingsguard arrived after Donnel Arryn and changed the course of the battle, it stands to reason that Gwayne Corbray needed to convince some reluctant Lord to join the fight. Those who he needed to convince may well have included his own House, who had family connections to those fighting for Daemon, including Hightowers and Sunderlands, and possibly also Brackens, Costaynes or Tarbecks.

I will jump of the remainder of the Blackfyre Era to cover possibly in a different post. I want to get to Robert's Rebellion, where one of the earliest battles took place at Gulltown. Lyn Corbray fought alongside House Grafton in this battle against his liege lord Jon Arryn. The Corbrays only joined Robert Baratheon's cause after the Gulltown defeat. The Royces are not mentioned in what we know of Robert's Rebellion but there is little doubt they supported Jon, Robert and Ned from the beginning given their network of relationships; there are many signs the Royces have high esteem for Ned and the Starks.

 

[Vaegon the dragonless]

On 4/22/2024 at 1:40 PM, Hippocras said:

I hope I answered your question about Jonos and what I was getting regarding his name on the other thread. For our purposes here the point is that the name Jonos as well as his and Ronnel's mother's name, Sharra, suggests a connection to the Riverlands or other region outside of the Vale, and one with antipathy towards the Starks. Jonos Arryn caused a conflict in the Vale and his supporters were killed so the name would not have found popularity there afterwards. But because the name did not come from the Vale originally, but from Sharra's family, it remains in use in its region of origin or possibly in female line descendants of Jonos Arryn.

 

Yes I understand more clearly want you where trying to say (and the idea of female line naming connection is interresting) but I still dont agree with the idea of Jonos as part of a pro-andal anti-stark movement. In my mind Jonos is just the instants of a brother trying to usurp another, which we see later with the Dance. The connection with the Riverlands is certainly possible, but I wont be so certain about them being anti-stark. We both agree that the first mention of a Jonos is in the Stark lineage, it is possible that Jonos came into the Riverlands by female descendants of that Jonos, perhaps thrue the Blackwoods. Like you said the only other Sharra is from the Riverlands but she is from the age of heroes and therefore of First men origins, so if Jonos Arryn was giving that name because of is mother this could point to a first man and possibly northern ancestery. In fact it is interesting to point out that another Jonos, Jonos Frey is from the line of the Royce wife of Walder Frey, therefore one could argue that the connection with the first men is quite strong with the name Jonos, especially if Sharra comes from a first man family be it of the Riverlands or somewhere else. That would leave only Jonos Bracken has having strong andal and seven's connection, but then again we know that the Brackens and Blackwood have intermarried quite a bit in there history, so Jonos could come from a far of Jonos Bracken whose mother was a Blackwood. So the idea of the name Jonos showing a strong Andal connection seems not that strong of a idea.

On 4/22/2024 at 1:40 PM, Hippocras said:

 

The coup attempt in the Vale in 37 AC did not exist in a vacuum. The Vale had been involved in conflicts related to House Hoare in the Riverlands just prior to the conquest and the people alive in 37 AC were born of alliances related to that time. Many Houses in the Riverlands were, for at least 200 years, looking for allies elsewhere to fight off their Ironborn oppressors. We know the Hoares were constantly fighting off Valemen and Westermen to defend their holdings. So this is the backstory of how Sharra ended up in the Vale. 37 AC was also one generation after the Vale's fleet was destroyed at Gulltown and the Northmen were sent to the Sisters to put down the rebellion there. Many in the Vale would have seen the involvement of the Starks in the Sisters as an affront given that the Vale and the North fought over the Sisters for hundreds of years. Ronnel Arryn was a minor still during the conquest, probably less than 12 which means in 37 AC any daughters of Ronnel Arryn and his Stark wife would have been in their teens or twenties (daughters because a son would have succeeded him). And the most likely bet is that the eldest and possibly only daughter of Ronnel Arryn was either the wife or the daughter-in-law of Allard Royce.

Yes but the Sistermen rebellion was mainly against house Arryn, and against the Targaryen at a higher level, yes the Northmen put it down but with Visenya's help. And importantly it was the Manderly's that were the main force behind the putting down of the rebellion, mostly because the Arryn fleet was still not rebuilt. And once the rebellion was ended a hostage was sent to the Arryns and to the Manderly's not to the Starks. So sure some people might have seen the putting down of the rebellion has too close to the war across the Water but that was a few centuries before the conquest, most likely bad sentiment between the two sides would have been less important by that point. 

On 4/22/2024 at 1:40 PM, Hippocras said:

Within this dynamic then we have the Tarth triplet-Corbray match. Any children of this match would have been born in 15 AC or later as their mother was born shortly after the conquest. She was of Targaryen descent, the niece or granddaughter of Daemon Velaryon who had burned the Vale fleet in 2 BC. Her match with a Corbray makes it likely that the Corbrays were, at that time, allied with those most affected by the events of the conquest, namely Houses Grafton and Sunderland. So the Tarth match would have been a peace-making union and a carrot preventing the Corbrays joining up with Houses Grafton and Sunderland to plot rebellion - after all, the Corbrays are and Andal family based in the North of the Vale, in the region most affected historically by the wars against the Starks. Their natural inclination would have definitely been to resist being ruled by the descendant of a Stark if not for the Tarth match and the favour shown to Gawen Corbray,

It is absolutely possible that the Corbray's where given that match has a incentive to be loyal, but it could also be because they are one of the principal banner men of the Arryn, after all the two other match are with the second most important house of the Reach and Iron Islands respectfully. It could just be part of the Targaryen tactic of uniting the important house of each region to actually build a united kingdom. Again the War across the Water was centuries ago by the time of the conquest so I dont think that a strong anti-stark sentiment would still be present in the Vale, at least not enough to push out a valid heir because he is married to a Stark.

On 4/22/2024 at 1:40 PM, Hippocras said:

Corbrays a short time later fought for Aegon the Uncrowned as did the Royces who were allies of Rhaena Targaryen. This may have been because the Corbrays were angry about Maegor's brutality towards the Faith in the Uprisings, or it may have been because by 42 AC when Maegor stole the throne, the Corbrays and Royces were allied in a peace-making match that was part of the resolution of the events in 37 AC. Whatever the reason, in this instance the two families were on the same side. Then during Jaehaerys's reign Alysanne resumed Targaryen match-making activities making peace unions within regions and weaving together different regions, which would have affected both families.

Yes or it could be that both family's dont have a real rivalry and have no problem cooperating. It is a simple answer but sometime the simplest is the best.

On 4/22/2024 at 1:40 PM, Hippocras said:

Jeyne Arryn (granddaughter of Rodrik) became the lady of the Vale in 97 AC at 3 years old. As Yorbert Royce was her Regent he was probably her relative. But Royces were also the main supporters of Arnold Arryn who contested her leadership of the Vale. This is explained by the fact that Yorbert's heir Rhea Royce had no children with her husband Prince Daemon and so after she died Runestone passed to a different branch of House Royce. Joffrey Arryn, Jeyne's chosen successor, may have had some connection to Jeyne's lover Jessamyn Redfort, whose name suggests descent from Jessamyn Manderly in one of Queen Alysanne's matches. Joffrey Arryn may have been Jessamyn's nephew or cousin, and clearly had primarily non-Royce heritage. He may even have been named after Joffrey Doggett - a House whose sigil suggests connections to Houses Corbray and Brax. The Vale succession crisis was probably only resolved with a flurry of match-making in 134-136 AC. These efforts were led by Alyn Velaryon and Benjicot Blackwood.

It could also be explained by the fact that Arnold was a squire at Runestone, so he would most likely have a close relationship with the Royce, so it would be in the interest of the Royce's to have him inherit, outside of the fact that he is the closer heir by blood to Jeyne. Is rebellion during the Dance is interesting because it seems that the Royce did not join him at this point even tho they would have cause to oppose Rhaenyra and her husband. I agree that a number of mariage could have been the most likely end of the rebellion.

On 4/22/2024 at 1:40 PM, Hippocras said:

 

Rhaena Targaryen's time in the Vale during the Dance is key for the subsequent period. Even though she and Corwyn Corbray had no children, she made many friends and allies during her stay there. Significantly, Rhaena was the daughter of Daemon Targaryen who had so offended House Royce and Jeyne Arryn with his treatment of Rhea Royce. The Royces were unlikely to have counted among Rhaena's friends in the Vale. After Corwyn died Rhaena married Garmund Hightower, a family connected to the Corbrays historically via the Tarth triplets (and probably by various indirect routes ever since). At least one of her 6 daughters would have married into the family of a Vale friend of hers in or after 152 AC. Gwayne Corbray's name suggests descent from House Hightower, and Daemon Blackfyre's treatment of him suggests a degree of kinship.

I agree that Rhaena was most likely not popular with the Royce, But I dont agree with the idea that the reason of Daemon's treatment of Gwayne was because of a family connection, Daemon is suppose to be the paramount of knighthood, so him treating a adversary with great respect show more so that Daemon was a true knight and the best king rather then a possible far away blood relationship with Gwayne. 

 

On 4/22/2024 at 1:40 PM, Hippocras said:

As mentioned before, the Corbrays may have been hesitant to fight for Daeron II. Their liege lord was fiercely loyal to the King but we know there were conflicts over this within the Vale. Not all of the Vale was initially with their liege. As the reinforcements led by Gwayne Corbray of the Kingsguard arrived after Donnel Arryn and changed the course of the battle, it stands to reason that Gwayne Corbray needed to convince some reluctant Lord to join the fight. Those who he needed to convince may well have included his own House, who had family connections to those fighting for Daemon, including Hightowers and Sunderlands, and possibly also Brackens, Costaynes or Tarbecks.

They may have, but they may not have. Yes we here of conflict but outside of the Sunderland we dont have any definite or even suspected Blackfyre supporters in the Vale, so we cant say for sure that anyone of the big houses of the Vale where on the Black dragons side. And the fact that Gwayne seemed to have a important role in the battle and possibly a command would indicate to me that he was trusted by Daeron, something that would not be so clear if is family was of dubious loyalty. 

 

On 4/22/2024 at 1:40 PM, Hippocras said:

 

I will jump of the remainder of the Blackfyre Era to cover possibly in a different post. I want to get to Robert's Rebellion, where one of the earliest battles took place at Gulltown. Lyn Corbray fought alongside House Grafton in this battle against his liege lord Jon Arryn. The Corbrays only joined Robert Baratheon's cause after the Gulltown defeat. The Royces are not mentioned in what we know of Robert's Rebellion but there is little doubt they supported Jon, Robert and Ned from the beginning given their network of relationships; there are many signs the Royces have high esteem for Ned and the Starks.

Yes I completely agree, but I will had that we actually dont know if the whole of house Corbray fought for the Targaryen at the beginning of the rebellion, we know Lyn fought but it is not clear if the rest of is family fought against them, but I agree it is most likely that the Corbray were opponents of the the rebellion at the start of it. And It seems that Ned had high esteem all around the Vale, most likely because of is time there, because if I remember correctly the lords and knights of the Vale pushed Lysa to commit the Vale in favor of Robb, not something that only the Royce could do. 

[Hippocras]

20 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

... but I still dont agree with the idea of Jonos as part of a pro-andal anti-stark movement. In my mind Jonos is just the instants of a brother trying to usurp another, which we see later with the Dance. The connection with the Riverlands is certainly possible, but I wont be so certain about them being anti-stark.

Jonos's own personal motives are not all that relevant. He may well have just been a power grabbing brother. But noone would ever make a move like he did in a feudal system if they did not have allies. Those allies, who they were and why is what we are really discussing.

Jonos's coup attempt existed in the context of the Vale fighting the North for hundreds of years in the not-yet-forgotten past, and then insult was added to old injury when the Starks and Manderlys were called on to put down the Sisters rebellion shortly after the Conquest. But that is far from all there is to it: We do know that the imposed marriage between Ronnel Arryn and his Stark wife was extremely controversial and was resisted both by Torrhen Stark's sons and by Ronnel's mother. So obviously if the Starks hated the idea so much, then many in the Vale would not have been jumping for joy at the match either. These were two of the 7 Kingdoms who very much resisted being bound together in this way.

 

20 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

We both agree that the first mention of a Jonos is in the Stark lineage, it is possible that Jonos came into the Riverlands by female descendants of that Jonos

If Jonos was a Stark name, it would show up more often in the North IMO. So I think it is the other way around and Jonos Stark got his name from his mother's family further to the South (I suspect Ryswell). We may find out one day that Jonos Stark was the one to kick the Blackwoods out of the North. That would certainly explain why the name Jonos might then come into use in the Bracken family.

 

20 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

... but it could also be because they are one of the principal banner men of the Arryn, after all the two other match are with the second most important house of the Reach and Iron Islands respectfully. 

From what I can tell in the histories the Royces have always been the 2nd most powerful family of the Vale. So if the Corbrays got the first semi-royal match instead of the Royces it must mean either that there was a need to use the match as incentive for loyalty, or that the Royces already had an earlier royally-connected marriage alliance (which is distinctly possible but we have no real evidence for it yet). Or both.

 

20 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

It could also be explained by the fact that Arnold was a squire at Runestone, so he would most likely have a close relationship with the Royce, so it would be in the interest of the Royce's to have him inherit, outside of the fact that he is the closer heir by blood to Jeyne. Is rebellion during the Dance is interesting because it seems that the Royce did not join him at this point even tho they would have cause to oppose Rhaenyra and her husband. I agree that a number of mariage could have been the most likely end of the rebellion.

Yes, it is partly explained by Arnold being squire there, certainly. But these things have more than one layer, and a longer view of the history brings more undercurrents into focus. Nothing is ever only one thing. I rather suspect that "squire" is a euphemism for Arnold marrying a Royce daughter and his line then being of Royce descent and allegiance. I doubt the Royces were actually fighting for crazy Arnold so much as for his son and his line.

The Royces did not join Arnold's earlier rebellions because a different branch of House Royce was in charge then. Yorbert was Jeyne's regent until she came of age. Then Runestone passed to Rhea, Daemon's wife. Then it passed to her nephew who may or may not have been Gunthor, but it seem more likely that Gunthor was an even MORE distant relation of Yorbert and Rhea because Rhea's nephew would not have been all that old in 134 AC and Gunthor was an old man.

 

20 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

I agree that Rhaena was most likely not popular with the Royce, But I dont agree with the idea that the reason of Daemon's treatment of Gwayne was because of a family connection, Daemon is suppose to be the paramount of knighthood, so him treating a adversary with great respect show more so that Daemon was a true knight and the best king rather then a possible far away blood relationship with Gwayne. 

Sure, and yet the evidence certainly suggests that they were kin, via Rhaena, regardless of Daemon's reasons.

 

20 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

They may have, but they may not have. Yes we here of conflict but outside of the Sunderland we dont have any definite or even suspected Blackfyre supporters in the Vale, so we cant say for sure that anyone of the big houses of the Vale where on the Black dragons side. And the fact that Gwayne seemed to have a important role in the battle and possibly a command would indicate to me that he was trusted by Daeron, something that would not be so clear if is family was of dubious loyalty.

The Kingsguard history is full of trusted knights who sometimes needed to fight against the side their families chose. How much Daeron trusted Gwayne to keep his vows IMO does not say much about where the Corbray allegiances otherwise stood at that point in time. Remember, we don't actually know when Gwayne joined the Kingsguard. It seems likely he was an older member who had been there a long time, in which case he was appointed by Aegon IV, not by Daeron II.