Your Good and Evil Spectrum

[Errant Bard]

Well, when I read the books I don't exactly say to myself "oh, well that's nice isn't it" after Theon allegedly puts the heads of the Stark boys on spikes the way I say to myself "oh, well that's nice isn't it" after Sansa sups with Margaery Tyrell.

Just because the characters are intended to all be grey doesn't mean we react to all of them in some bland identical fashion.

You're missing my point. I just find it ridiculous to decide that such action is worth X evil points but another action by another character in another environment is worth Y evil points, and then decide who is eviler depending on the result. It's like taking two students in different countries, see that one got 90 in history and the other 70 in physics and decide from that that the first student is better.

It just does not make sense. Characters that do evil things also do good things, and even the concept of what is "good" changes not only from reader to reader but also depending on the known background story of the character.

Arya is a good example, she murders, but people still rate her super-good... why? Because she has a sappy story and some sort of righteous motivation for that. Yet when joe Schmoll with no background story kills wantonly, he's evil.

[Guest]

This is a great thread. And I guarantee the way Martin writes, that if we did this again at the end of the series, some characters would make some serious moves each direction. Think where Jaime would have been after the first book?

Evil

Gregor

Walder Frey

Roose Bolton

Euron

Tywin

Joffrey

Cersei

Theon

Sandor

Littlefinger

Melisandre

Jaime

Loras

Dany

Stannis

Catelyn

Arya

John

Tyrion

Robb

Sansa

Samwell

Ned

Davos

Brienne

Bran

Good

So many characters left off

[Greyjoy Rebellion]

You're missing my point. I just find it ridiculous to decide that such action is worth X evil points but another action by another character in another environment is worth Y evil points, and then decide who is eviler depending on the result. It's like taking two students in different countries, see that one got 90 in history and the other 70 in physics and decide from that that the first student is better.

It just does not make sense. Characters that do evil things also do good things, and even the concept of what is "good" changes not only from reader to reader but also depending on the known background story of the character.

Arya is a good example, she murders, but people still rate her super-good... why? Because she has a sappy story and some sort of righteous motivation for that. Yet when joe Schmoll with no background story kills wantonly, he's evil.

And I think you're missing mine too.

I'm not trying to build some absolute "wheel of good/evil" here, I'm just asking people's personal opinions. There are 1,000 right answers and not a single wrong one. Clearly, for you, there must be some character who you think is more evil than the rest.

[lumer]

EVIL

Catelyn -Killed an innocent, though she was crazed, was unfair to Jon.

I seriously can't see how that can be held against her. She basically saw the remains of broken family brutally murdered in a treason so heinous that it will take a millenia do come across something similar. She used what little sanity has left her to do revenge on those most deserving - cursed by gods and men and all that jazz.

As to Jon, well that has been discussed so much I won't open that can of worms now. Suffice to say I disagree on that one as well.

I'd put Catelyn up there in the goody section with the rest of the noble, naive-to-a-fault Starks

[Blackest_Fyre]

EVIL

Theon - I think he's just actually childishly selfish; he doesn't necessarily like seeing people hurt or suffer, but he cares more about getting what he believes to be his; he clearly has developed a bit of megalomania to compensate for feelings of abandonment (family gave him up as peace offering);

Joffrey - Joffrey's actually a sadist, I think, which qualifies him as more evil in my book than Theon; he also combines the vanity, sense of self-importance, and stupidity that make Theon such a bad guy, so he should rank lower;

Stannis - has an unbending moral compass that he follows regardless of personal desire, as he seems to lack ambition to really be king; actions are just without being merciful; if anything, Stannis seems to be a very strict deontological moralist (believes in absolute moral rules that cannot be broken) and Kant would be proud of him

Renly - I would put him right with Tyrion and the others in the "amoral" column of being self-interested and only self-interested; also, unlike the others, he has those streaks of vanity and ambition;

Arya - Childhood psychology generally indicates that children of her age do not have true moral reasoning; they are mostly still running on rules-based systems that their parents have taught them; in that sense, she is "moral" as she feels guilt when doing stuff she thinks her father would disapprove of (GRRM is careful in his descriptions to normally couch her guilt in those terms - "What would Septa Mordane think?" or mother, or father); in this sense, children aren't on the moral spectrum at all;

Bran - He doesn't do bad stuff, so seems more moral than others, but again I'll stick to my belief that children aren't really morally actualized so they don't fall anywhere on the spectrum;

Dany - She's a very interesting case; she's at the age where mental development is sufficient to really start thinking more deeply about morality and justice, and I think this is reflected in her character's struggles as she attempts to learn how to command and how to rule. She has the potential to be very good, indeed--her instincts seem to tend this way, as she has demonstrated compassion and a consideration for right and wrong, along with a natural aversion to suffering.

In terms of really good characters, I think Davos definitely seems like the best we have...the selflessness of certain Maesters also stands out--Aemon, Cressen, etc. They truly seem more interested in the good of others and the kingdom as a whole than in any personal ambitions.

[Crates of Thebes]

As some have pointed out, just because everyone is grey, doesn't mean some characters aren't closer to black and others closer to white. Take Jon, for example. He does have a darker side, but on the whole, he is a pretty upstanding guy, dedicated, and thoughtful. He doesn't wantonly kill, he cares about duty, about doing what's right. Brienne, too, is very nearly white. While, of course, Joffrey, Roose Bolton and Walder Frey are nearly demoniacal.

[Brian Stark]

I'm not real fond of these ratings kind of threads, there seem to be no end of them. My theory is that this indicates the majority of posters are school aged, and generally think in terms of grades.

The being said, my list of most evil is a bit different.

Melisandre

Petyr Baelish

Qyburn

Gregor

These people are all insanely murderous. Perhaps the fact that there are no POVs for them causes lower ratings? Evil is all about intent? Well I really don't think any of these meant well.

I concur with your list, maybe sprinkle in a little Cersei, but I don't think she is truly evil, maybe has evil tendencies.

[Palind]

First of all I don´t want to be a wise ass here, but since the thread is opened there are some things to be said about categoryzations like this. Especially characterizatins into good and evil tend to lead to a very George Bushy way of thinking. The morale value of actions is in large parts determined by ones upbringing and social environement. So if you want to judge the characters in the book you have to look at their personal situation and the possible choices they have.

The grey of the characters is due to the psychology of humans. Imo Martin does a great job showing that even the vilest acts are justified by the persons commiting them(i.e Tyrion killing his father). An evil person doesn´t think of himself as evil but has/finds reasons for his actions.

So I think if we do this, we have to look at the egotism vs. altruism of their actions.

Ok, enough of professor wiseass. Imo Arya is the most judging characters in the story. Look at the scene in the Inn for example where she meets Gregors men. Why did she kill that little acne ridden squire. He didn´t pose a threat to her, didn´t even have a weapon in hand when she stabbed her in the belly. She judged him to be evil because he in company with evil men. He was probably just trying to survive in trying times. What choices did he have. And what about Dareon. Yes, he was uncaring towards Sam and Aemon, but truly who wouldn´t try to get away from the NW and have some fun in warm, distant Braavos. Still think she´s the most fun POV to read.

Dany I would put on the good side of the scale, not neutral. She´s thinking alot about the consequences of her actions to others(freeing the slaves and their consequent life situation). She is at least trying to do good, meaning to improve the life of her people.

Having said the above, I`d be careful to judge non-POV characters like Roose Bolton for example. Imo we don´t know enough about their motives and situations.

Still curious how this thread will progress. Have fun with it

ETA spelling

[L'Sana]

I'm going to limit myself to PoV characters, since otherwise I could be here all day.

EVIL

Theon: aka "that child-murdering bastard." He does what he does out of pride and lust for power. There is not a single redeeming thing about him.

Cersei: aka "the murderous bitch." She does what she does out of pride, a lust for power, and a desire to keep her children safe. It is that last that puts her ahead of Theon, albet barely.

DARKER THAN AVERAGE

Victarion: He's a slaver, a rapist, and a murder. Yet for some reason I sympathize with him more than Theon and Cersei. I feel he is trying to do what's right according to his culture. If I'm irrational to put him above Theon and Cersei, then so be it.

Jaime: He's looking for redemption, but he still through Bran out of a tower hoping to kill him.

Arya: Yes, I understand her situation is rough. But she's one scary little girl. She's reached the point where killing is a first option when she doesn't get her way, not a last option when she has no other way to save herself.

Tyrion: Is heading down the same dark road as Arya, after Symon Silvertounge, Shae, and his father.

NEUTRAL

Damphair: Religious nutcase, but he does seem to be trying to look out for the good of his people, however warped his view on that is.

Areo Hotah: Don't really know enough about him to judge, only that he is absolutely loyal to Doran without seeming to have much of a moral code beyond that.

Arys Oakheart: Seems nice enough, but we see too little of him and what we do see is too passive to put him in with the good guys.

Asha: I like what I've seen of her character, and of her plans, but I haven't seen enough to understand why she's doing what she's doing. I don't know if she believes in peace and the good of the people or if it is all a power grab on her part.

Arianne Martell: Seems to be trying to do right by Dorne, but doesn't know what that is.

Sansa: She cares about people, she shows compassion even to her enemies, she risks herself to protect others, but she did betray her father...

GOOD, BUT...

Dany: Frees slaves, is trying to make herself into a good queen. However, she has developed this nasty habit of burning people alive, something I can't be comfortable seeing in a daughter of Aerys.

Catelyn: Loyal wife and daughter, loving mother, wise but unheeded councilor. Her downfall: "It should have been you."

Sam: Tries to do the right thing, but is blind to the bigger picture.

Jon: Is trying to do the right thing, but seems to be going blind to the smaller picture.

Ned: Tries to do the right thing, but is just blind, period.

SAINT-LIKE

Brienne

Davos

Bran

[Ender]

Yow, WTH? I thought this was an intersting concept for a thread.

IMO too many ASoIaF fans are so attached to the concepts of moral ambiguity and multidimensional characters in the series (these being the series' biggest selling points in suggestion threads on other forums) that they refuse to apply any moral judgement towards a character when it is stripped down to the labels of "good" and "evil." They will, however, make such judgments when they are veiled under related or component concepts (such as greed, arrogance, honor, motherly love, etc.) when it supports their opinion that one character is more {fill in the blank} than another character. Total hogwash.

Martin's characters are not any more multidimensional than real humans. And I think we are quite capable of labeling humans good or evil in various degrees based our perspective and the moral compass we choose to use. Yes, most of humanity will be mashed together in the middle, but that doesn't mean that we can't make personal judgement calls. We do it all the time, often without even thinking. We do it when we demand the death penalty for child molesters, rapists, and Mike Vick. We do it when we give recognition to people for their generosity, and their friendliness. We do it when we learn about another's views of on homosexuals, women, and other races. We define people who jive with our views as "good people."

Part of the confusion for some readers, IMO, comes from the fact that in Martinworld, unlike traditional storytelling, "evil" acts often have positive consequences, and "good" acts often have negative ones. AFAIK, nowhere does Martin suggest that for his world we should therefore use reverse logic to determine that positive outcome<=>good act and negative outcome<=>evil act. In fact, it can be argued that the whole experiment of Martinworld is to show that no such relationship actually exists: that there are acts and there are the consequences, and that the consequences are distinctly unrelated to the intentions behind those acts. IMO, Martin shows that "good" people tend to want to believe that there is a relationship between intention and consequence and that this belief works to their detriment, while evil people work under the hope that no such connection exists, and since it doesn't, they tend to come out the better. (Except that perhaps there are unforeseen consequences--embodied by the Others).

Anyway, enough ranting...

Let's see. I was going to do a Nine Circles of Hell thing, but I'm getting tired with this post...

EVIL

Gregor and his gang and the Bloody Mummers

Walder Frey and Roose Bolton

Joffrey

Viserys

Cersei

(possibly Mel)

Littlefinger

Varys

Theon

Stannis

Renly

Tyrion

Jaime

Arya

Dany

Jon

Samwell

Catelyn

Sansa

Brienne

Davos

Ned

Bran

GOOD

or something like that

[The Sword of Early Afternoon]

A lot of this depends on how one defines "evil" and "good". I think it makes sense to judge everyone on their actions, as opposed to words (or on thoughts in the case of POVs). And I don't care, in this context, why someone acts as they do. Based on these criteria, it's a relatively simple matter of ranking crimes and ranking kind/noble acts. My biggest problem is that I know I'm forgetting a lot of key actions, and probably even some key characters, both of which will make my list imperfect. But here goes nothing:

EVIL

Joffrey - Murderer, torturer, maimer. No good at all to balance it.

Cersei - Murderer of many children.

Tywin - Utterly ruthless. Brought war to thousands of innocents. And Tysha/Tyrion; yuck.

Gregor - Murderer of men, women, children, etc, etc. All under Tywin's orders, and loyal at least.

Theon - Murderer of (his own, had he known) children. But very conflicted, for what little that's worth.

Jamie - I don't hold killing Aerys against him, all things considered. But he tossed Bran.

Sandor - Murderer of child Micah, Arya's friend in AGOT. Far from totally evil, but still.

Viserys - Twisted, utterly self-centered, and cruel in petty ways to his sis. But never did much evil at all.

Catelyn - Mean to Jon. Loving to family. Not one to help strangers. I'd call her neutral.

Stannis - More poor judgment (following Mel) than real evil. Basically a good guy. (Goes to Wall.)

Sansa - Makes some bad calls, and could be brighter. But not evil, certainly. Slightly good.

Renly - Pretty good. But never should've declared as king, esp before Stannis. Slightly evil.

Arya - In it for herself, but understandably. Good.

Ned - Duh.

Bran - Sure.

Davos - Good.

Sam - Good.

Jon - Always trying to do good. Period.

Tyrion - Actively wants to do good; always tries to help people. No issue w/ Xing Tywin. Good.

Dany - Cares about people. All people. GOOD.

GOOD

Thinking through this was an interesting process. In practice it boiled down to who's killed (the most) children on one end of the spectrum, and who goes out of their way to help people on the other end.

I hadn't put together that Tyrion, Jon, and Dany really stand out in a class by themselves because they repeatedly go out of their way to help people when it does not benefit them. I can't say that about even Arya, Ned, or Bran. Sam and Davos are close, but not to the extent of the big 3.

[strongboar]

Let's see. I was going to do a Nine Circles of Hell thing, but I'm getting tired with this post...

The Vestibule: the Opportunists

Ser Barristan Selmy, the Tyrells

Circle 1: Virtuous Pagans

Not applicable

Circle 2: The lustful

Tyrion Lannister, Lancel Lannister, Lysa Tully

Circle 3: The gluttonous

Strong Belwas

Circle 4: Hoarders & Wasters

Renly Baratheon

Circle 5: The Wrathfull

-Arya Stark, (un)Cathleyn

Circle 6: The Heretics

Qyburn, Archmaester Marwyn

Circle 7: The Violent

Violent against self, Violent Against God, Violent against neighbors

-Gregor Cleagane , Amory Loarch, Bloody Mummers, Victarion Greyjoy, Euron Greyjoy, Balon Greyjoy & assorted Iron Islanders, Joffrey Baratheon, Viserys Targaryen

Circe 8: The Fraudulent

Hypocrties, Thieves, Falsifiers, Sowers of Discord, Simoniacs, Flatterers, Deceivers, Fortune Tellers, Panderers & Seducers

-Stannis Baratheon, Petyr Baelish, Maggy the Frog, Cersei, Mellisandre, Shea, Tywin Lannister, Ser Jorah Mormont, Arianne Martel, Bronn, Varys, Janos Slynt, the Kettleblacks

Circle 9: The Treacherous

Treacherous to their masters, treacherous to their guests, treachorus to their country, treacherous to their kin

-The Freys, The Boltons, Theon Greyjoy, Jaimie Lannister

[Too Good To Be True]

1. Didn't Reeksay Bolton kill the miller's children, not Theon?

Or the Ironborn? I doubt Theon would've soiled his gloves. It was Reeksay's idea anyway, not Theon's. Although given that Theon condoned it, and only through cowardice, that could perhaps make it worse than if he'd done it himself. The crime was abominable, but I don't think it makes him more evil than some of the others: Cersei killed a child when she herself was one. Even Arya has done much the same. It's the reasons for his actions (basically his inferiority complex due to his family tradition and the confusing second upbringing) that make him unpleasant; perhaps like Viserys, or even Jaime really.

2. I wouldn't call Brienne or Davos sainted. Brienne would happy to kill if she was bid to, especially if it was by Renly; she's not kill-happy but she'd go into battle and spill blood. She is moral, but not above suspicion as it were. And Davos was a smuggler; OK, probably to feed his family, but if you use the whole "no victimless crime" scenario, smallfolk in Westeros could suffer because of a lack of tax revenue due to his smuggling And I get the impression he has probably killed men before the Blackwater, in his smuggling days, although probably in a fair fight.

Bran is I suppose "sainted" although being a lord in the making he would have to make unpopular decisions and probably have to kill at some point in the future.

[LogicWarrior]

nevermind

[Ser Bruce the Hound KG]

Circle 4: Hoarders & Wasters

Renly Baratheon

won't Renly be in circle 7 ?

[Burr]

a very George Bushy way of thinking.

we have just GOT to come up with a better way of saying that. Bshy? Herbevil?

[The Mango]

BAD

Joffrey - 100% Narcissistic Evil - I don't see any redeeming qualities here. He doesn't even commit his evil deeds for a purpose, just on his sick whims. A very "Caligula" like character.

Bolton - Scheming Betrayer - Will betray anyone to advance himself and his house.

Cersei - Only cares for herself - Everything she does, she does because she loves herself so greatly.

Tywin - Machiavellian Poster Boy - Capable of incalculable cruelty and evil to secure the advancement of himself and his house.

Littlefinger - Will apparently do anything to get ahead. He seemingly had a large hand in starting the war, and has profited from it tremendously.

Theon - Pretty Bad - Seems like he's actually not a bad person inside, and that he's struggling within himself between what he feels is right (his Stark upbringing) and what his culture tell him is necessary.

Jamie - Searching for redemption - The only truly terrible thing we have seen him do is throw Bran from the window. He still feels guilt for killing his king even though it was the right choice. He loves and is very protective of his brother and seems to dispise those who prey on the weaker.

Arya - Getting worse by the minute - Arya was an innocent girl not long ago, but her experiences have left her jaded, and she's not far away from becoming simply a cold blooded murderer.

Tyrion - Has done some bad things at times (usually to bad people though), but is generally a good man.

Stannis - Good Intentions - Truly believes what he does is for the good of the realm, but his methods are questionable.

Robert - Vice City - Generally a good hearted man, his love of women, food, and wine bring him down. He has also excused atrocities that have sickened him to preserve his power.

Dany - Self Righteous B**** - Generally has good motives, but has a massive thirst for power and sense of entitlement. Often her decisions seem more about vengeance than justice.

Catelyn - Loves her family, probably too much - She goes a bit crazy near the end, and does some things that are likely not the best of ideas.

Sansa - Innocent Bystander to Jaded Bystander - She sold her father out, mostly of naivite. She has also stood witness to many bad acts, but what's she really going to do about it?

Jon - Very honorable, very torn about breaking his oath.

Samwell - Very similar to Jon, in almost every respect.

Davos - Robin Hood of the High Seas - Cares about his children more than himself. Would do anything for his liege. Has apparently cheated on his wife, but feels guilty about it.

Ned - Virtual Saint - Not only does he always do the right thing, he allows people to think there is a stain on his otherwise immaculate virtue in order to preserve his sister's honor and his bastard nephew's life.

Bran - Almost completely innocent, but he's still young, so it's to be expected.

GOOD

I don't know enough about Eurion to list him, but he could be anywhere from worse than Joffrey to tied with Tywin.

[bodhi]

Evil: characters that perpetrate violence & murder as a mean for itself. They might be psychos and have their reasons but they like the act of making their victims suffer. In this field you have Gregor, Lorch, Vargo, Biter, & all their minions. Possibly also Joffrey & Ramsay, Viserys we don't know enough about him. A redemption ark for one of these guys would be interesting

Semi Evil: characters that know that they perpetrate evil but believe it is for a greater good (real or not); this category is reserved solely for Qyburn who represents the banality of evil in that he tortures and kills to gain knowledge. They can be compasionate (like treating Jaime & explaining the horrors of Vargo). Ayra is slowly moving into this segment; possibly also Mel.

Little Evil: lots of characters in here like Jaime, Tyrion, Theon, Sandor. People with a concience but who can be quite ruthless, often driven by circumstances. Their characters are a mixture of bad and good deeds. Jaime tried to kill Bran and Tyrion killed a singer (and complains that he should've learned the song before killing him, talk about evil deeds). They are obviously the characters that drive the narrative because they can go either way & you can root for them.

Ruthless: the machivelistic segment (Cesare Borgia would be proud of you) contains Tywin, Bolton Snr, Euron, LF, Varys, etc. These guys may kill in cold blood but they need a good reason. We complain about the Red Wedding but for the Kingdom it was the right decision. And Varys only has the good of the kingdom at heart but launches a civil war, don't know what he would've done if he had hated the kingdom.

Warriors: guys like Victarion, Tarly or the broken men that we hear about in AFFC. Guys that fight wars and pillage & rape their way through them (the concept that war is not paid in gold and sex is a novel one, in medieval warfare you went to war for the spoils). Thereafter they go home and enjoy retirement. People like Sandor, Asha, Bronn or even Jaime could also be here. Not really bad guys, just don't meet them in the middle of a battle field.

Conflicted Good Guys: Jon, Stannis, Catelyn (preZombi), Ned, Rob, Dany. Not as ruthless as the Tywins of Westeros but they are learning and they often only have bad choices. Some of them will come very close to the ruthless segment. The good ones will die.

Good: mostly characters that remain positive despite their hardships like Sansa and Davos. Their moral compass is still intact. Regrettably they are also the most boring characters.

Saints: Brienne, nuff said.

[Heal]

EVIL

Gregor

Roose Bolton

Joffrey

Viserys

Cersei

Varys

Theon

Stannis

Renly

Tyrion

Jaime

Arya

Dany

Jon

Samwell

Catelyn

Sansa

Brienne

Davos

Ned

Bran

Littlefinger

GOOD

the things you guys arn't realizing about Littlefinger is that everythings he's doing is for the greater good....so of course he has to be a great and good guy.

[fireface]

I am surprised at how many times Tyrion ends up on the more evil spectrum, especially more there than Arya. He isn't completely saintly, but since he stuck up for Sansa in GOT I have always thought of him as knightly. He does try to do the right thing and thinks of helping others and how his actions affect other people. Outside of war I think the only person he has killed was Tywin right? Aryas killed about a dozen, pretty coldly.

I have a feeling this will change during a DWD. Ah Sansa, if you weren't so dumb...