Greyjoy Rebellion Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 It seems as though Martin (with a few exceptions) tries to portray a sympathetic side to almost every POV character in the books, and almost everyone who claims to be a king. Taking into account all of the POV characters and also those who claimed to be the rightful king, and adding in the other major players as you want (Mace and Loras Tyrell, Littlefinger, etc), how would your good-evil spectrum look? Who do you consider to be the most "evil" characters and who are the most good in the series? here's a really quick (and omission laden) example: EVIL Theon - the most evil character in the series, IMO. Joffrey - probably tied with Theon Viserys - was always cruel and hate-filled, but circumstances made him a monster Cersei - evil, but sometimes compassionate when it suits her Jamie - I would actually make two entries for Jamie, but before Harrenhal he belongs squarely on the evil side of things Stannis - Although the rightful king, he sold out his gods and everything else he held dear to bring the people what they did not want. Littlefinger - His only morals are opportunism. Tywin - relentlessly driven and duplicitous, but with some semblance or notion of honor. Catelyn - too self-serving to be called good, and I'll never really forgive her for how she treats Jon Tyrion - Cunning and ruthless, and a Lannister, but it's hard not to root hard for him. Maybe the most engaging character in the series in terms of whether he's good or evil. Jon - I see Jon as fairly neutral, as he is a member of the Night's Watch and sworn to no side. Still, he did try to flee once, had to be dragged back, and has too much of an air of entitlement about him sometimes. Sansa - fairly innocent, but I don't really like her as a character so it's hard for me not to get angered at her lack of wit and moxie. Samwell - wants to do the right thing, is often incapable of doing it. Dany - the jury is still out on this one, but I like her. Davos - a good man, driven to follow a bad leader out of loyalty Renly - seemed like a good guy, although we hardly caught a glimpse of him Arya - the hardest child to kill in the seven kingdoms Ned - practically infallable as a character, always did the right thing, always dutiful, which obviously was his downfall. Bran - as moral as Ned, as innocent as a child still GOOD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaak Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 EVIL Theon - the most evil character in the series, IMO. Joffrey - probably tied with Theon Viserys - was always cruel and hate-filled, but circumstances made him a monster Why Theon? Why is Joffrey better than Theon or Viserys? What circumstances are pressing Joffrey to do evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vhagar Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 George RR has said that he doesn't believe in the white hat guys and the black hat guys, so what you are saying is correct. Everyone he writes is grey...some of them a darker shade of it than others! I agree, though. There are characters that I view as primarily evil and others that are primarily good. But...this is how the world is. I don't think I would have been brave enough to scale them as you have until the thing is done, though! I'm interested to see the feedback you get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyjoy Rebellion Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 Why Theon? Why is Joffrey better than Theon or Viserys? What circumstances are pressing Joffrey to do evil? Well, Joffrey isn't necessarily better than Theon or Viserys, or vice versa. I think this is all just opinion, and in mine, Theon is the most evil for killing those he grew up with, and innocent children to pretend as though he'd killed Bran and Rickon. With Joffrey, he's always been loyal to his family at least. Theon would kill his own sister if he had the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizermaot Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I have some problems with your spectrum, the biggest one is Theon being the most evil character. True, he is a childkiller, but IMO to be completely evil you have to do whatever it is you do without guilt and without caring about the consequences. Theon is clearly sorry for what he did, and the memory of the kids he killed haunts him. I'd actually put him after most of the character you named. there are much more evil ones, like littlefinger, who would cause the whole realm bleed for his own gain, or the sadistic Ser Gregor, whom you didn't even mention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scabbard Of the Morning Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I can't agree with your list, Theon is the most evil? Renly "whoever has the biggest army gets to be king" is a "good guy" and better than Jon or Davos? Tywin is a better person than Stannis? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyjoy Rebellion Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 I can't agree with your list, Theon is the most evil? Renly "whoever has the biggest army gets to be king" is a "good guy" and better than Jon or Davos? Tywin is a better person than Stannis? Really? I'm not asking you to agree with my spectrum. I drew this up in five minutes, as an example. I'm actually in the middle of a re-read right now, so my quickie spectrum probably has a lot to do with the fact I just finished ACOK and started ASOS, and Theon just committed some pretty heinous acts. I'm more interested to see what everyone else comes up with! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyjoy Rebellion Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 or the sadistic Ser Gregor, whom you didn't even mention. I know Gregor is one of the most evil characters in the book, but if I started rattling off every person in the series who was as major a character as Ser Gregor, I'd end up with every Cleos Frey and Amory Lorch and Roose Bolton and about fifty Walder Freys. The spectrum would get too large and unwieldy I tried to make it just POV characters and would-be kings, with a couple of notable exceptions. I should've probably included the hound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crates of Thebes Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I think Davos is one of the most admirable characters in the whole series. I cried when he decided to risk his life to stand up to Stannis and deliver the message about the Wall. He is genuinely loyal and caring, and it is easy to identify with him, perhaps more than any other character in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizermaot Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I know Gregor is one of the most evil characters in the book, but if I started rattling off every person in the series who was as major a character as Ser Gregor, I'd end up with every Cleos Frey and Amory Lorch and Roose Bolton and about fifty Walder Freys. The spectrum would get too large and unwieldy well you are right about that, including all the evil characters would be unrealistic. but still, your spectrum is very different from mine. i just don't understand how Arya who kills just too easily at the age of 10 (although her victims do deserve it) is less evil than innocent Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyjoy Rebellion Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 well you are right about that, including all the evil characters would be unrealistic. but still, your spectrum is very different from mine. i just don't understand how Arya who kills just too easily at the age of 10 (although her victims do deserve it) is less evil than innocent Sansa. I think it all has to do with who you identify with the most, and then also what relative position they are in. Sansa hasn't been through half of what Arya has, to be quite frank. I don't consider Sansa very brave at all until later in the series, she's just some stupid bird (as the hound says) that will say anything and do anything to please everyone else so she doesn't get hurt. I know, I know...what choice does she have? Well, it seems like she never stood up for herself or even tried to get away once during Joffrey's reign. Well, Ser Dontos, but come on...she never took the initiative to get away herself is what I mean. Doing the right thing for Sansa for the first two books at least is saying whatever and doing whatever to please those in power. Seems pretty cowardly to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gizermaot Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I think it all has to do with who you identify with the most, and then also what relative position they are in. Sansa hasn't been through half of what Arya has, to be quite frank. I don't consider Sansa very brave at all until later in the series, she's just some stupid bird (as the hound says) that will say anything and do anything to please everyone else so she doesn't get hurt. I know, I know...what choice does she have? Well, it seems like she never stood up for herself or even tried to get away once during Joffrey's reign. Well, Ser Dontos, but come on...she never took the initiative to get away herself is what I mean. Doing the right thing for Sansa for the first two books at least is saying whatever and doing whatever to please those in power. Seems pretty cowardly to me. Again, I do not agree with you IMO the way Joff terrorized Sanse is no less horrible than whatever happend to Arya. and anyway, it's a good-evil spectrum and has nothing to do with cowardice or bravery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skegg Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 EVIL Cersei - Pretty much just a wicked bitch, I don't see any redeeming qualities. Tywin - The dogs he employs were excessive and on his orders, unfair to Tyrion. Joffrey - Quite a little shit, granted, his role models weren't very good. Viserys - Even though I'm not a big fan of Dany, Viserys was a douche. I can easily see him killing without regret. Littlefinger - Kills or orders/assists in killings to advance himself. Theon - Was raised as a Stark, but is Ironborn, the Stark connection means that he should have known better, but I can see why he went wrong. Jamie - I don't think Jaime is that bad really, if you've ever been in a position where people hate you for no better reason than others tell them they should, and you can't do anything about it, sometimes you just give up and do what they expect. This is doubly true when you are doing them a solid and they hate you even more for it. Mainly he's at this position because of Bran and Ned. Stannis - I like Stannis and I think without the conversion to the new faith he would have been one of the most moral people in the series. He assisted in the killing of his brother and is constantly looking for people to sacrifice. Arya - Many of her killings were justified or in self defense, the Bolton guardsman she killed to escape Harrenhal wasn't really. Catelyn - Killed an innocent, though she was crazed, was unfair to Jon. Tyrion Sansa - Knows about Littlefingers plans but does nothing, granted, there probably isn't much she could do. Jon - Neutral Samwell - Neutral Dany - Neutral Davos Ned Bran GOOD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyjoy Rebellion Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 Again, I do not agree with you IMO the way Joff terrorized Sanse is no less horrible than whatever happend to Arya. and anyway, it's a good-evil spectrum and has nothing to do with cowardice or bravery. Well being cowardly doesn't make someone more "evil" perse, but being brave makes someone more "good" in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 When it is said that all GRRM's characters are in shade of grey, it does not mean that they can only be darker or lighter, it means that some are redish grey while others are blueish grey. A simple one dimension scale does not make sense and is at odds with the very PoV structure of the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Warrior Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 This is a good topic, and I'm interested in where this all goes.Cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightflyer Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 I'm not real fond of these ratings kind of threads, there seem to be no end of them. My theory is that this indicates the majority of posters are school aged, and generally think in terms of grades. The being said, my list of most evil is a bit different. Melisandre Petyr Baelish Qyburn Gregor These people are all insanely murderous. Perhaps the fact that there are no POVs for them causes lower ratings? Evil is all about intent? Well I really don't think any of these meant well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyjoy Rebellion Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 When it is said that all GRRM's characters are in shade of grey, it does not mean that they can only be darker or lighter, it means that some are redish grey while others are blueish grey. A simple one dimension scale does not make sense and is at odds with the very PoV structure of the books. Well, when I read the books I don't exactly say to myself "oh, well that's nice isn't it" after Theon allegedly puts the heads of the Stark boys on spikes the way I say to myself "oh, well that's nice isn't it" after Sansa sups with Margaery Tyrell. Just because the characters are intended to all be grey doesn't mean we react to all of them in some bland identical fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyjoy Rebellion Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 I'm not real fond of these ratings kind of threads, there seem to be no end of them. My theory is that this indicates the majority of posters are school aged, and generally think in terms of grades. I'm 32 and haven't been in school in over ten years. I just like lists adn the like. Putting things in certain types of order helps me to conceptualize things better, especially with a storyline as complicated as this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybroleach Posted July 23, 2007 Share Posted July 23, 2007 The most evil should be LittleFinger, Roose Bolton and Euron Grejoy those three are cold, calqulating and have no cares in the world other than self-empowerment. At least most of the others have feeling and beleifs but these three are 100% self serving. And right behind them is Tywin, who is just like the other 3 except he seems to care about his family. After him come all the socialpaths since their mentally handicapped they should be recognized as less evil than those who are of higher intelligence: Joff, Cersei, Vis, Gregor, Hoat, Lorch, Ramsay, Aerys ect. After that we get into the grey area where some characters make mistakes but overall are trying to do right: Jaime, Tyrion, Cat, Robb, Sansa, Rhaegar, Arya, Stannis, Renly, Loras, Davos, Robert, Barr, Jorah ect pretty much 90% of the characters. And at the bottom we have some who practically still innosencents: Bran, Jojen, Ned, Sam, Dunk and Maester Aemon. Mel is kind of an enigma since if she's genuine in trying to save the world she could fall into the trying to do right section if she's playing everyone then she probably belongs in the top 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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