MAFIA 56 - Barbie World

[House Stokeworth]

[quote name='House Blackfyre' post='1492328' date='Aug 23 2008, 20.36'][b]Preferably Pink (Weekapaug) is dead. She was an Innocent Barbie.[/b][/quote]

*sigh*


[b]Aqua[/b], time to step up to the plate. I know you had RL reasons for starting slow. Fine, no problem. But now we're down to 7 players. Your free pass has expired.

I want some clear, decisive suspicions from you. Back them up with evidence please.

[House Baratheon]

I'm staying with my longtime suspicions and whacking that vote straight on [b]Hard Rock[/b].

[House Stokeworth]

[quote name='Black Canary' post='1492339' date='Aug 23 2008, 21.04']I'm staying with my longtime suspicions and whacking that vote straight on [b]Hard Rock[/b].[/quote]

If I wasn't currently voting for Aqua, my vote would be with you on Hard Rock.

[House Reed]

I had a feeling that Diva or Pink would be the next night kill, and [u]I used my one time heal[/u] on Jazz Diva because she has thus far seemed the strongest player, and the FM are after the stronger players, no? I picked wrong, like I've done all game. I'm going to post more today, and try to help out more. Aqua, please do the same, I don't think you're guilty, but it seems some others do.

I have a hunch, but I need to do some rereads, and it would be best to save it for later today.

[House Stokeworth]

[quote name='Hard Rock Cafe' post='1492369' date='Aug 23 2008, 22.03']I had a feeling that Diva or Pink would be the next night kill, and [u]I used my one time heal[/u] on Jazz Diva because she has thus far seemed the strongest player, and the FM are after the stronger players, no? I picked wrong, like I've done all game. I'm going to post more today, and try to help out more. Aqua, please do the same, I don't think you're guilty, but it seems some others do.

I have a hunch, but I need to do some rereads, and it would be best to save it for later today.[/quote]

:stunned:

Did you miss the part where I said people should reveal any role [u]other than Healer[/u]? There goes the Healer threat that was probably keeping me alive. :(

Though I suppose I do have to admit that it doesn't seem like the FM care much about potential Healers anyway. They may not have come after me yet, but they've been going after all the other strong, talkative players (and a possibly roled player).

Of course, there's also the question of whether or not we should believe you. Any chance you have a code?

[House Redfort]

[quote name='Hard Rock Cafe' post='1492369' date='Aug 24 2008, 04.03'][u]I used my one time heal[/u] on Jazz Diva[/quote]Interesting. It looks like right move at the right moment, but one-time healer? In game where we have no finder and presumably no vig? If so, the setup is really role-light.
For what exactly reason you revealed?

[House Yronwood]

Well, I for one believe Hard Rock.

I am a one shot finder and investigated her last night. Hard Rock and Toujour were my favorites to be partnered with Helly. Hard Rock seemed to be the overwhelming choice for today (and my first choice) so I chose her.

That leaves Toujour as my top suspect today - I think everyone knows the case. Her 'distancing' post with Helly and the middle of the road extravaganza she has been putting on.

After that I'd say Diva is my top suspect. Canary I don't see as a partner for Helly due to her single mindedness in going after the H named Barbies.

In order, my suspects are ...
Toujours
Diva
Showgirl
Tarina
Canary
Hard Rock

I'll admit I don't have a great handle on Showgirl or Tarina, but I feel slightly better about Tarina.

I was convinced Pirate was a symp and thus Pepper was guilty. Pirates's death threw me hard and I still don't have a satisfactory explanation for it - tons of wild speculation and half baked ideas, but nothing that remotely satisfies me. My best guess is that she needed to lynch an innocent to kill a FM on the mob ('cause Helly's death is puzzling to the extreme also).

My credibility is shot in this game because of my early absence - that's part of why Pink's reprimand hit me so hard. I knew I was letting my team down and I was so upset I couldn't think straight at that point.

And finally, codes are for sissies. I never use them. Ever.

Sorry to drop a bomb and run, but I'll be back later tonight after I lose all my money at poker :(

[House Stokeworth]

[quote name='Miss Aquamarine' post='1492399' date='Aug 23 2008, 23.01']After that I'd say Diva is my top suspect.[/quote]

Make a case against me. Why am I your second suspect, over Showgirl and Tarina? Give specific reasons.

[quote name='Aqua']My best guess is that she needed to lynch an innocent to kill a FM on the mob ('cause Helly's death is puzzling to the extreme also).[/quote]

Oh, that's your guess now? I seem to remember somebody else suggesting it earlier. Hmm...who could that have been? Perhaps your 2nd rated suspect?

[quote name='Aqua']My credibility is shot in this game because of my early absence - that's part of why Pink's reprimand hit me so hard. I knew I was letting my team down and I was so upset I couldn't think straight at that point.

And finally, codes are for sissies. I never use them. Ever.[/quote]

Without making a judgment either way on the truthfulness of your role reveal, I am going to say that it's a bit difficult to stomach both of the above statements.

The reprimand hit you hard because you were upset over letting your team down? I'm sorry, but if you really felt that way, I have to wonder why you didn't do a better job making up for it once you were able to get back to the game. As I pointed out earlier, you've barely contributed anything so far.

And "codes are for sissies"? Look, I know that there are a few people out there who don't believe in codes. And that's fine, I'm not a big fan of them myself. But there [i]are[/i] a few things that a code can be used to prove. I would, at the very least, liked to have 1) seen some proof that you intended to claim finder from the very start of the game, and 2) seen evidence that Hard Rock was your investigation choice as of last night.


[quote]Sorry to drop a bomb and run, but I'll be back later tonight after I lose all my money at poker :([/quote]

When you get back, I'd appreciate some reasoning behind your suspect list. Specifically, why you rank your top 4 suspects in that order.

[House Targaryen]

It is day 4.

7 players remain: Black Canary, Hard Rock Cafe, Jazz Diva, Miss Aquamarine, Tarina Tarantino, The Showgirl, Toujours Couture.

4 votes are needed for a conviction or to go to night.

1 vote for Hard Rock Cafe (Black Canary)
1 vote for Miss Aquamarine (Jazz Diva)

5 players have not voted: Hard Rock Cafe, Miss Aquamarine, Tarina Tarantino, The Showgirl, Toujours Couture.

[b]ETA:[/b] Edited for the fact that it is ridiculous for a player to vote for herself, weirdos notwithstanding ;)

[House Stokeworth]

Another question. Why didn't you use your investigation on night 1 or night 2?

Also, is there anything else to your role? Or are you just a simple 1 shot finder?

Anyway, [b]remove vote[/b] for now.

[House Redfort]

Ok. If Aqua is innocent, Rock Cafe is innocent also. If Aqua is guilty, Rock Cafe is still likely innocent, since i can't remember any sinlge case where false finder gave alibi to a partner. Both ways, Cafe is PI now.
As for Aqua, somehow I believe her more than I believed the Pirate in same situation, but I am still sceptical.
I suppose our choice is between Aqua and Toujours today.

[House Stokeworth]

[quote name='The Showgirl' post='1492418' date='Aug 23 2008, 23.44']Ok. If Aqua is innocent, Rock Cafe is innocent also. If Aqua is guilty, Rock Cafe is still likely innocent, since i can't remember any sinlge case where false finder gave alibi to a partner. Both ways, Cafe is PI now.[/quote]

You're positive that Aqua isn't Hard Rock's symp?


[quote]I suppose our choice is between Aqua and Toujours today.[/quote]

Why are you more suspicious of Toujours Couture than Tarina?

[House Redfort]

[quote name='Jazz Diva' post='1492421' date='Aug 24 2008, 05.55']You're positive that Aqua isn't Hard Rock's symp?[/quote]Not fully, but almost. I vague remember Aqua attacking HRC before. I'll make a reread soon.
[quote]Why are you more suspicious of Toujours Couture than Tarina?[/quote]I like that case on Toujours Aqua mentioned. It's not ideal, but way better than all we have on Tarina.

[House Redfort]

[quote name='The Showgirl' post='1492426' date='Aug 24 2008, 06.07']Not fully, but almost. I vague remember Aqua attacking HRC before. I'll make a reread soon.[/quote]Yes, she voted Cafe on day 1, and it looked like a serious vote, so symp connection is hightly unlikely.

[House Stokeworth]

[quote name='The Showgirl' post='1492426' date='Aug 24 2008, 00.07']Not fully, but almost. I vague remember Aqua attacking HRC before. I'll make a reread soon.
I like that case on Toujours Aqua mentioned. It's not ideal, but way better than all we have on Tarina.[/quote]

So you think that Couture's day 2 case on Kitty was a distancing move?

[quote name='The Showgirl' post='1492431' date='Aug 24 2008, 00.18']Yes, she voted Cafe on day 1, and it looked like a serious vote, so symp connection is hightly unlikely.[/quote]

Looking back, I don't agree that the vote was entirely serious, but I do concede that a symp wouldn't cast a vote like that for her FM master.

So the question is, would 2 FM partners pull a double reveal of Healer and Finder like what Hard Rock and Aqua just did? And would they have the person claiming Finder 'clear' the one who was already claiming Healer? Maybe somebody completely crazy would do it....but yeah, I have to agree with you. It's very unlikely. So I'm willing to get on board with dropping Hard Rock to the bottom of the suspect list.

In case I haven't already made it clear, I also agree with the sentiment that Canary is likely to be innocent. I felt her earlier attack on Kitty was genuine.

Leaving me with 4 main suspects - Aqua, Couture, Tarina, Showgirl.

[House Redfort]

[quote name='Jazz Diva' post='1492438' date='Aug 24 2008, 06.49']So you think that Couture's day 2 case on Kitty was a distancing move?[/quote]It easily might be. The case was extremely weak and the vote looked much more like pressure than like serious intention to lynch.

[House Reed]

Ugh, I am very tired, those posts I mentioned will come in a few hours.

[House Yronwood]

[quote name='Jazz Diva' post='1492408' date='Aug 23 2008, 22.24']Make a case against me. Why am I your second suspect, over Showgirl and Tarina? Give specific reasons.[/quote]
You are second in line because you're doing a marvelous job of taking charge of this game and managing to stay alive :)

I've been doing a lot of re-reads and coming to a lot of dead-ends in regards to a smoking gun, so I have no definitive 'case'. A lot of what you post I agree with and it's very logical and well reasoned, but every once in a while something doesn't ring true to me. Call it gut. I didn't like you making so much of Sleepy's list on Day 2 at all. You commented on Kitty after Toujour brought it up, but never followed through with it.

After the Pirate reveal you took charge to make sure that we followed the lynch order and never questioned it. You say you're decisive, I say you're good at exploiting opportunity. The only thing I can't explain is why Pirate died that night because that would have been another potential lynch or at least a huge distraction. Maybe she was killed because the unknown bonus incentive was feared.

I guess when it comes down to it, my problem with the case on you (the Pirate kill) is more difficult to resolve than my problem with the Toujour case (her seemingly serious vote on Kitty) which can be seen as a distancing tactic.

I will try to come up with more specifics, but it's late right now and we have time tomorrow.

[quote name='Jazz Diva' post='1492408' date='Aug 23 2008, 22.24']Oh, that's your guess now? I seem to remember somebody else suggesting it earlier. Hmm...who could that have been? Perhaps your 2nd rated suspect?[/quote]
I know you mentioned it first. You also mentioned about 5 possible scenarios and I thought there were 2 that sounded the most plausible. I mentioned that before (not that you posted them first, but that there were 2 scenarios that I was comfortable with)

[quote name='Jazz Diva' post='1492408' date='Aug 23 2008, 22.24']The reprimand hit you hard because you were upset over letting your team down? I'm sorry, but if you really felt that way, I have to wonder why you didn't do a better job making up for it once you were able to get back to the game. As I pointed out earlier, you've barely contributed anything so far.[/quote]
All I'm going to say on that is that my frustration was real and it really did upset me enough that I had to walk away. I tried to come back, but still couldn't calm down. When I did come back, Medusa was lynched, Helly and Pirate were dead and Pepper looked like the sure lynch. There was no reason to make any cases and make myself a potential target until I could actually do something about it. I am trying to make up for it now.

[quote name='Jazz Diva' post='1492408' date='Aug 23 2008, 22.24']And "codes are for sissies"?[/quote]

I don't like codes and don't use them in games. I know most people expect them, but I prefer to play games without codes and I am trying to lead by example to prove they are not necessary to be believable.

[quote name='Jazz Diva' post='1492408' date='Aug 23 2008, 22.24']When you get back, I'd appreciate some reasoning behind your suspect list. Specifically, why you rank your top 4 suspects in that order.[/quote]

You and Toujour I have explained - Tarina and Showgirl I don't really have specific reasons for. They just kind of fell into the middle tier by default. I'd say that Tarina feels more genuine in her responses than Showgirl. She's been a little more out in the limelight and I never got the feeling that she ever felt pressured.

[House Yronwood]

[quote name='Jazz Diva' post='1492414' date='Aug 23 2008, 22.35']Another question. Why didn't you use your investigation on night 1 or night 2?

Also, is there anything else to your role? Or are you just a simple 1 shot finder?[/quote]

I didn't use my one precious investigation until now because I didn't think it would be useful. Night one would be foolish and night 2 was ... confusing in the extreme. I didn't have a handle on the game and didn't think I was a possible target because of my absence. Last night it seemed like Hard Rock was on everybody's list (mine included) and I wanted to make sure we were on the right track. If Hard Rock was guilty, that would be two down and we would be in a great position, possibly have won. If Hard Rock was innocent, I didn't want to waste the lynch and a day with little to no discussion, since we didn't really get anywhere with Pepper's lynch yesterday.

I am a simple one-shot finder.

[House Stokeworth]

[quote name='Miss Aquamarine' post='1492487' date='Aug 24 2008, 03.54']You are second in line because you're doing a marvelous job of taking charge of this game and managing to stay alive :)[/quote]

It always bothers me when somebody makes that type of accusation, without actually analyzing each of the night kills. Exactly when was I supposed to die? When was I a better kill than the person who actually did get targeted?

Night 1 - Sleepy - also a leader - any one of me, Sleepy, or Pink could have died
Night 2 - Pirate - the FM apparently didn't view him as a symp, and they probably feared his role
Night 3 - Pink - also a leader - again, the death was obviously going to be me or him

I don't think you can look at any one of those nights and say "Jazz should have died then, instead of the person who was targeted."

As for me taking charge....I really hope you aren't attempting to chastise me for actually trying to bring some sort of order and direction to this game. I'm not even going to get into how pathetic some of you have been in your level of participation. Yes, I know, you've all had real life troubles outside of the game. Fine, no big deal. That comes first. But you have to at the very least recognize that when half the players simultaneously deal with RL crises and therefore basically ignore the game, it creates a bit of a void. I tried to step up and provoke some action. Tried to get some [u]evidence[/u] in the thread, by making people answer questions. Tried to think logically and come up with a plan when important things happened. I pretty much had to do that, because nobody else was doing it (other than Pink before he got fed up and Sleepy in the beginning before he died).

To now criticize me for that, and act as if it is a bad thing....to act as if I am trying to control the game, when, without me, the innocents would have been completely lost.....that takes a lot of nerve.


[quote name='Aqua']I've been doing a lot of re-reads and coming to a lot of dead-ends in regards to a smoking gun, so I have no definitive 'case'. A lot of what you post I agree with and it's very logical and well reasoned, but every once in a while something doesn't ring true to me. Call it gut. I didn't like you making so much of Sleepy's list on Day 2 at all.[/quote]

I didn't treat Sleepy's suspect list as canon. I didn't go after the people he suspected, and say 'they must have killed him to protect themselves!' I picked out one very specific part of his list - his bottom tier of suspects. I agreed with the theory that people on that bottom tier would not have wanted to kill him. That is all. I didn't make those people CI. I didn't completely ignore them for the rest of the game. I merely dropped them to the bottom of my suspect list at that time.

My reasoning was sound. I have been evil plenty of times. In all those games, I can't think of one time when, at the beginning of a game, I chose to kill somebody who had explicitly professed trust for me. Doing so would be a really stupid move - why get rid of a strong player who likes you, and who wants other people dead?

Of course, Sleepy might have been after the partner of somebody on his bottom tier of suspects. So maybe they compromised and agreed to kill him to protect their partner. Its impossible to know. Which, again, is why I didn't mark those people as CI. I just said it was a point in their favor. And lo and behold, now Pink is dead and we know that he was innocent. So I was right to have him at the bottom of my suspect list after all.

As for Couture...we will see. We're at a point in the game where I'm certainly not going to write off the possibility of Couture being guilty based on the evidence of the night 1 kill. It was information that helped me rank people earlier, and it remains a minor factor in my evaluation, but that is all. I really find it hard to believe that you can't see past your blind, reflexive inclination to yell "WIFOM!" and understand what I'm saying here.

[quote name='Aqua']You commented on Kitty after Toujour brought it up, but never followed through with it.[/quote]

Are you intentionally ignoring context?

I wrote a relatively long post attacking Kitty. Here, I'll copy it -

[quote name='Jazz']That's not what you said. At all. Here's what you said -

*Kitty quote*

Essentially, what you said was "at the end of the day, you should vote for the person you most suspect, regardless of the number of votes for that person."

There are 2 problems here.

1) Your statement is clearly wrong. Sometimes you have to compromise to get a lynch. And lynching is important in a CF game. Do you disagree?

2) You are now claiming that you said "at the end of the day, you should post your thoughts about the person you most suspect, regardless of the number of votes for that person." There's a clear difference between voting for a person and posting thoughts about a person. Why are you misrepresenting what you said?

I'd like you to explain both of these things.[/quote]

Soon after, I left the thread. Kitty posted a response a few hours later. I came back to the thread a little while after she responded. As you can tell from post 404, I decided to re-read every player. I was going to respond to Kitty and post an evaluation of her once I got to her. I started with the players who had the lowest post count, and worked my way up the list. In post 404, I got through the first half of the group. It didn't include Kitty.

While I was posting about those players, Pirate made her reveal. That derailed my re-read, for obvious reasons. I didn't just abandon the attack on Kitty. I didn't fail to follow through. I simply hadn't gotten to it yet. The evidence in the thread backs me up on this.

Aside from the fact that she was able to post a response to Kitty's poor explanations, I don't see how Canary did anything more than I did, with regard to Kitty. We both attacked her for the same inconsistencies and strange behavior.

[quote name='Aqua']After the Pirate reveal you took charge to make sure that we followed the lynch order and never questioned it. You say you're decisive, I say you're good at exploiting opportunity. The only thing I can't explain is why Pirate died that night because that would have been another potential lynch or at least a huge distraction. Maybe she was killed because the unknown bonus incentive was feared.[/quote]

For one moment, I'd like you to pretend that you were actually here when the Pirate reveal happened. Now go ahead and try to logically evaluate our options. What would you have had us do?

Are you somehow suggesting that you would have told us to lynch neither one of Medusa or Pepper? Just ignore them both, and Pirate too? Is that what you're saying? Because if you are, then I'm going to call you a liar. And if you aren't saying that, then this point is absolutely meaningless.

And the next day, when we lynched Pepper, were you against that? I seem to remember you saying you felt good about the lynch -
[quote name='Aqua']I think Pepper is the smart lynch today, but since some players haven't checked in yet I don't want to push the vote up too close.[/quote]
[quote name='Aqua to Pepper']Not that I wasn't going to vote for you to cover the bases anyway, but now I feel a lot better about it.[/quote]

You were all for lynching Pepper. I can't see how you could reasonably criticize me for pushing a plan that you agreed with.

[quote name='Aqua']Tarina and Showgirl I don't really have specific reasons for. They just kind of fell into the middle tier by default. I'd say that Tarina feels more genuine in her responses than Showgirl. She's been a little more out in the limelight and I never got the feeling that she ever felt pressured.[/quote]

I can tell you this with 100% certainty - if you are telling the truth, if we are right about Canary being innocent, and if there are 2 evil players left, then at least one of Tarina or Showgirl is evil. I know you want to think its Couture and me, but I'm honestly not guilty. I think the fact that I'm pretty much the only player who has consistently made an effort to find the FM throughout the game supports that. So you better take a few minutes to look through Tarina and Showgirl's posts. Figure out how you really feel about them. Putting them off until the end of the game would be a mistake.