Is Margaery Really Margaery the Pure

[Shemy]

She would naturally have an incentive to get laid with Renly, but that doesn't mean Renly could manage it. We have LF's gossip that Margaery is still a maid despite her desperate desire not to be one. I hardly see what basis there is for certainty that she isn't, since arousing someone contrary to their natural sexual orientation is not necessarily a trivial accomplishment.

If that was the case it raises question as to wether the Tyrells would be of full support behind Renly rather than the Lannisters to begin with IMO. I don't think Loras holds enough sway for the Tyrells to fully support Renly, but a Queen and Tyrell heirs taking the throne does. I am pretty sure they had plenty of nights to try since Marg rode with Renly to KL. While I actually think that Renly had the manpower to certainly claim the throne with the Tyrells - I think it would be in Renlys best interest to consumate and try to impregnate as soon as possible to secure that, and I would consider it downright dangerous if he never at least managed to have sex with her once. If he couldn't do it the first time, I'm pretty sure that it would drive home all the more to find somehow a way to do it - If the Tyrells consider that Renly can't produce an heir a Lannister or heck even Stark betrayal can become possible.

She thinks in terms of what lies can be gotten away with and what can't (see her rejection of Loras as one of the accused sexual partners of the Queen), and she knows that losing a maidenhead to a horse is common knowledge..even smallfolk talk about it happening to highborn ladies. But when Pycelle confesses to delivering the moon tea, it caused an uproar. If other uses of moon tea are not as common knowledge, this can be expected to have more power than the maidenhead issue, and Cersei has steered the affair as well as she could.

Unless the other uses of moon teas are rarer knowledge than horseback hymen breaking...unknown to most men, say....then she doesn't need to worry about whether it's ironclad proof. It's an adequate proof for the court of public opinion which is the game Cersei is playing

While I won't rule out that idea, it certainly seems odd to say the least, especially since it's not a Maester only thing. I'm pretty sure the wildings can brew it as can the Iron Islands, neither of which have much use for Maesters. I can only draw that its known by either a few or only by Maesters if this were true. But every major house has a Maester, and I'm pretty sure that if Moon Tea had other uses other than contraception it would have eventually became common knowledge, It also gives rise to the question that indeed if Maesters have some knowledge of other uses of moon tea, or just Pycelle, was it really worth the risk on both accounts from the Maester brewing it, to Marg taking it? From the confrontation with Marg/Cersei in the cells it seems that Marg finally snapped and showed herself to be knowing of Cerseis nature and not to be some naive child. She clicked on pretty fast to Cerseis plan, which I've always liked, and it doesn't make sense that Marg could be as stupid as to even consider taking Moon tea when she shows a good sign of brilliance and I don't think is entirely childlike to the game itself. She would have known for it to be far too dangerous.

To be clear, I'm not 100% asserting that Margaery is a maid or that moon tea has multiple uses; merely rejecting that the opposite is even close to a solid conclusion. In fact, there's so much reasonable doubt from all of Cersei's manipulation and fraud, that I don't see how anyone can conclude that the balance of probability comes down in her favour. In a modern courtroom, I doubt Margaery would be determined to be a non-maid on any of the evidence given.

Well I suppose you've made your point pretty well, but at the same time some of your answers have gave rise to more questions needed answering ;)

The only sources the book gives to that effect are the testimony of two notorious liars, so I don't see that as much of an argument.

What I meant was from Asha to Ygritte to Cersei and the High Septon, it all points to none of them having any knowledge of any other use for moon tea than as contraception. While it doesn't rule out that moon tea couldn't have a secondary effect, it enhances that highborn/lowborn makes no difference, knowledgeful or not, moon tea is only ever used as a contraception and aside from Pycelles interruption, nothing really supports otherwise.

Why? Why would she want to actively undermine her own framejob? She wants Margaery convicted, if she pointed out a solid defense argument, they might end up acquitting.

With a White Knight admitting adultery, a blue bard willing to sing a certain song for Cersei, her hymen being broke in and moon tea I doubt that even if Moon Tea had some other property that was well known she wouldn't be in a position for questioning. With no real way for her to prove innocence as well as some other witnesses like the blue bard willing to line up and others escaping making them look guilty I'm sure pointing out that moon tea can be taken for another purpose, and it would be better for her to seem to jump to every conclusion necessary so the Tyrells don't suspect her of a thing. Remember - it was not enough to accuse Marg, there needed to be enough proof and a third party such as the faith so it's not seen as her. I would guess doing her best to show face of opposing it with question that could jump to her defence would be good for Mace.

By that, do you merely mean that you aren't especially persuaded (I can understand that) or that you consider it to be completely impossible? (I can't understand that at all.)

I don't consider it impossible, and I doubt I could be persuaded, but I like to work with the evidence presented, and about the only indication that can point to moon tea perhaps having another use is Pycelle being cut off from finishing why Marg takes moon tea, stuttering while under threat for his life. It could be correct, but I just don't see it. That clue is a bit too subtle for me as the evidence is speculative on what Pycelle didnt get to say in a stressful situation for my tastes. It could very well be true but it seems like its stretching a rubber band to its maximum to make it work

[The_BlauerDragon]

I just can't help but wonder how many times she'll have to be widowed before her prospective grooms will start opting to take the black instead of her hand.

[Lummel]

Even without a Renly-Margaery child the alliance can still work out to the benefit of the Tyrells. As key allies of Renly they would have been in a position to gain title, honours, money to enhance themselves and reward their follewers. No child from the Renly-Margaery marriage - no problem. If Renly legitimised Edric Storm and made him his heir he can be married into the next generation of Tyrells, keeping supreme power in the family for another generation.

There was less incentive for the Tyrells to side with the Lannisters when the war begins because the Lannisters have spent so many years trying to monopolise royal patronage - so there's less avaliable to share with the Tyrells. After the victory over Stannis, its a different story as suddenly there are forfeited lands on hand to share amongst the victors.

With regard to Moon Tea, it may not have been an alternative use that Pycelle was about to reveal but rather an alternative user.

[Winterborn]

With regard to Moon Tea, it may not have been an alternative use that Pycelle was about to reveal but rather an alternative user.

I think you're on to something,t here. ;)

[Alexia]

With regard to Moon Tea, it may not have been an alternative use that Pycelle was about to reveal but rather an alternative user.

I'll say it again, I firmly believe the moon tea was for Elinor and her squire. ;)

After mulling it over, I think there's a fairly good chance that Margaery is not a virgin but she simply is too intelligent to be carrying on an affair in KL when she knows Cersei would love nothing better than to take her down. I think that is borne out by the fact that Cersei was not able to find any evidence against her.

[Shemy]

I'll say it again, I firmly believe the moon tea was for Elinor and her squire. ;)

After mulling it over, I think there's a fairly good chance that Margaery is not a virgin but she simply is too intelligent to be carrying on an affair in KL when she knows Cersei would love nothing better than to take her down. I think that is borne out by the fact that Cersei was not able to find any evidence against her.

I was considering this myself...when Pycelle was stuttering, that it was to say who it could have been for, either that or just stuttering. Both are quite possible.

But, I questioned this too. If we assume that Marg is getting it for someone else, say Elinor, shouldn't she know the risks involved? We know shes intelligent enough and that Cerseis after her, so isn't even meeting Pycelle to take the moon tea for Elinor risky in itself, incase it gets pinned on her? (Which, if we assume Elinor is taking he moon tea, it DID get pinned on her.) Shouldn't Elinor have gone directly herself to Pycelle? Even knowing that Maesters are sworn to secrecy, even if he did talk, the most Pycelle could give Cersei was that Elinor was summoning her.

A rather stupid move by Marg if this is the case.

[Marina]

But, I questioned this too. If we assume that Marg is getting it for someone else, say Elinor, shouldn't she know the risks involved? We know shes intelligent enough and that Cerseis after her, so isn't even meeting Pycelle to take the moon tea for Elinor risky in itself, incase it gets pinned on her? (Which, if we assume Elinor is taking he moon tea, it DID get pinned on her.) Shouldn't Elinor have gone directly herself to Pycelle? Even knowing that Maesters are sworn to secrecy, even if he did talk, the most Pycelle could give Cersei was that Elinor was summoning her.

A rather stupid move by Marg if this is the case.

Well, another theory is that Margaery knew about CERSEI's affairs and was actually getting people to slip it into her tea. I know it may seem a bit far-fetched, but it's my favorite. First of all, if Cersei has another kid so long after Robert's death it'll throw a bad light on Tommen's legitimacy, especially considering all the rumors flying around already. And if Tommen was revealed as not being the true heir, Margaery would lose her royal status. Second, I always though Marg was smarter than she appeared to be, even if you knew what an unreliable narrator Cersei was. Her last scene in AFfC makes me think she knew a lot more about Cersei's scheming than anyone realized. Besides, the Queen of Thorns considers Marg her darling protege - she's got to be sharp.

[Alexia]

A rather stupid move by Marg if this is the case.

Well, my theory assumes that Pycelle knows full well who it is for and since Marg is a bit older, she's a little more confident about such things, in addition to Pycelle's vow of secrecy. I also have a bit of a sense that Pycelle was aware of how unstable Cersei is and had become an ally of Margaery's. Also, Margaery should be untouchable by all logic. The fate of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance hung completely on her marriage to Tommen and the fact that Cersei believes she can have Loras killed in battle and Margaery executed for adultery while retaining the Tyrells as allies is breathtaking in its stupidity. So I don't think it ever occurred to Margaery that she would be framed while the war was still going on.

Though I do agree that, if the tea was for Elinor, it was a very naive move on Margaery's part to help her with it.

[Radio Changes]

But yeah, if someone as reasonable as Cersei doesn't offer alternative explanations that would tend to exonerate the people she's scheming to frame, well, then they must not exist, eh?

I think it's a little too much to pin Cersei as a 100% unreliable narrator. Despite how insane she is, Cersei DID have the thoughts that while horseback riding the hymen can be broken. She doesn't tell anyone, but it crosses her mind, and she convinces herself that needs stronger evidence. I believe that as a woman who was educated by maesters and septons, and being extremely nobly born, she knows what she's talking about when it comes to moon tea.

Basically, it isn't fair to say that anything Cersei thinks is suspect due to her mental state. Her suspicions about others is totally suspect due to her unreliable nature, but not the properties of well known herbal concoctions.

[Patrick Tully]

With a White Knight admitting adultery...

Just a small correction. Osney isn't a member of the Kingsguard.