Birthers... one more time

[Ector]

No seriously, there is a need to be insulting at this point. All of your points have been debunked and proven baseless for months now. If you can't fucking accept that you are the one being insulting in your stubborness. There is absolutely no proof any document he provided has been forged beyond the wishes for a few fucking assholes trying to distract from the fact they have no other worthwhile point to fucking make. Anyone who claims this is still somehow an issue is a fucking dumbshit.

I don't think any document has been forged. Personally, I am convinced he is a citizen, but i can also understand that people want to see the other more accurate birth certificate because of his grandmother's comments.

[BloodRider]

idiocy emboldens domestic terrorism

whoa, there, j. edgar. there's no incitement to unlawful acts in the thesis that BHO is an evil foreign degenerate atheist commie islamist neo-quaker usurper. but, yeah, there's a lot of idiocy therein.

No, there was not. But to deny that this silliness encourages your Tim McVeigh or your Eric Rudolph to move into action to "take my country back" before it is too late is putting your head in the sand. That is why I feel completely justified in telling these folks to shut the hell up.

BTW - this is a common tactic of politicians and pundits. Demonize and rail, then act surprise when someone acts on your words. Just because you do not tell someone to pick up a gun and shoot an abortion Dr. does not mean you are not very responsible. Because while they may say "evil foreign degenerate atheist commie islamist neo-quaker usurper", you can double bet that in the next segment they are going to say that those folks need to die....

I don't think any document has been forged. Personally, I am convinced he is a citizen, but i can also understand that people want to see the other more accurate birth certificate because of his grandmother's comments.

You mean his grandmother's TRANSLATOR'S comments. Immediately followed by his Grandmother saying - no, no thats not what I said.

And by the way - you are totally a birther. Get some stones and stand up for the full craziness of it all will ya.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

No, my argument is that the US Constitution does not demand that a person be born in the US in order to be President, which is your express statement.

A person can be natural-born and not be born within the US borders. (See jus sanguinis. See also the other challenges to candidates - and non-candidates - born outside the US territory that have already been made and found lacking. And McCain, among others, is well-known and proven to have been born outside the US. Why aren't you arguing that he shouldn't have been allowed to run either?)

[Ector]

No, my argument is that the US Constitution does not demand that a person be born in the US in order to be President, which is your express statement.

A person can be natural-born and not be born within the US borders. (See jus sanguinis. See also the other challenges to candidates - and non-candidates - born outside the US territory that have already been made and found lacking. And McCain, among others, is well-known and proven to have been born outside the US. Why aren't you arguing that he shouldn't have been allowed to run either?)

I have never looked into McCain's birth. He could very well be ineligible to run for president. He didn't win so it seems kind of irrelevant. I have never read any of the above laws/court decisions you posted above. Is there one specifically you think relates to Obama?

[Watcher]

I don't think any document has been forged. Personally, I am convinced he is a citizen, but i can also understand that people want to see the other more accurate birth certificate because of his grandmother's comments.

I'm going to try this one more time, nicely

1) Independent groups have seen his original and long form birth certificate.

2) The copy that was posted wasn't a forgery and is all that is required to run for political office.

3) Two newspapers have the microfich announcing his birth

4) His grandma has disputed the claim she ever said he was born in Kenya

5) The State of Hawaii has announced he was born there in 1963

6) The U.S. Constitution does not say you have to BORN in the U.S. to be President.

7) Anyone that peddles the birther bullshit is a birther.

[Ector]

I'm going to try this one more time, nicely

1) Independent groups have seen his original and long form birth certificate.

2) The copy that was posted wasn't a forgery and is all that is required to run for political office.

3) Two newspapers have the microfich announcing his birth

4) His grandma has disputed the claim she ever said he was born in Kenya

5) The State of Hawaii has announced he was born there in 1963

6) The U.S. Constitution does not say you have to BORN in the U.S. to be President.

7) Anyone that peddles the birther bullshit is a birther.

I'll try this one more time:

I think he was born in Hawaii.

All birthers want to see is the long form birth certificate.

Takes like 3 seconds to photo copy.

This whole thing would be over.

[Dinsdale!]

The Constitution demands a person be BORN in the US to be president not just a citizen. When I was trying to research the "birthers" complaints I found it best summarized here:

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=100451

This has links to the evidnece of Obama's grandma's comments (Although its not very strong evidence).

"the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens"

According to the naturalization act of 1790.

Clearly, if you have at all considered the constitutional argument it is the word natural that you are claiming makes BHO (and John McCain annd George Romney in their day)* birthplace relevant. After all being a "born citizen" of the United States is practically impossible to interpret incorrectly.

So here is my fair offer. I have seen no evidence that the word "natural" in this context implies born on United States soil. All my reading of relevant statutes does not indicate so. So if you want to pursue this point please give me a treatise on the original meaning of those words that indicates thusly. MY feeling is that congress in 1790, an era before judicial review when they were passing laws to clarify the constitution, meant what they said in the above cited act, and that it is the original meaning of "Natural born citizen." And if you cannot do this, you shouldn't rationally expect me to listen to you.

*

John McCain - Panama

George Romney - Mexico

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

This one, or maybe this one.

Or how about the Immigration and Nationality Act? Please note that this is option G; there are A-F and H as well.

EVEN IF one says that Obama was born outside the US, and EVEN IF one says that his father was an alien and not a national (he was certainly not a citizen), and EVEN IF one wants to argue that his mother did not live in the US for 5 years after turning 16 before Obama's birth (which is impossible, since she was 18 when he was born):

http://www.uscis.gov/propub/ProPubVAP.jsp?...e16a4cb816838a4

(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 1 of the International Organizations Immunities Act (59 Stat. 669; 22 U.S.C. 288) by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person (A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or (B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 1 of the International Organizations Immunities Act, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date;

Let's see. Born to a US citizen (Ann Durham Obama). Check.

Who was physically present in the US or its outlying posessions for a period or periods totalling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years. Check. We don't even have to get into her being the dependant of a member of the US military, as they were never stationed outside the US.

Born on or after December 24, 1952. Check.

I know the USCIS website isn't great, but WTF. If I can find it, anyone can. (To make it easier, the path was \ slb \ SERVICE LAW BOOKS MENU \ IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY ACT \ INA: ACT 301 - NATIONALS AND CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES AT BIRTH . Or just search for the INA, then go to section 301.)

And this is only if you take it as read that he wasn't born in any US state or territory, and his father was an alien and not a national. (If his father was a national, a different option applies, but he's still a citizen.)

[Zahir al Daoud]

All birthers want to see is the long form birth certificate.

Takes like 3 seconds to photo copy.

This whole thing would be over.

No it wouldn't. The more evidence you throw at these people the more enraged they become. No more evidence is needed. No more evidence would make the slightest bit of difference.

This isn't about the evidence. This is about projecting rage and disappointment at a world that doesn't act the way these nutjobs think it should act. This is about blame. A liberal man of color cannot legitimately be elected president, so of course he must be a fraud. The economy shouldn't act the way it does, so someone must be defiling the holy thing that is the free market. Gays and Spanish-speakers and Mormons and Pagans should not have any political power or be able to demand respect, so if they start to it must be the result of Evil Forces Out To Destroy Everything Good . God would not let the Democrats win control of Congress so the Devil must be behind it. Kids should idolize cops and sports heroes, not wizards and vampires -- it is all a PLOT. Real Americans would never condone national health care, and if it looks like they will then there are diabolical forces at work.

And so on, to the last vestige of paranoia and foolishness -- and maybe up to the point of violence.

[Watcher]

I'll try this one more time:

I think he was born in Hawaii.

All birthers want to see is the long form birth certificate.

Takes like 3 seconds to photo copy.

This whole thing would be over.

Is english your first language? Did you read anything I wrote? Study my first point carefully if you are still confused.

Why isn't all the proof good enough for you and all the other birther assholes? Obama has provided more proof then any other sitting president on where he was born. Why are you still demanding more? Where is your disconnect coming from?

[Ector]

Why isn't all the proof good enough for you and all the other birther assholes? Obama has provided more proof then any other sitting president on where he was born. Why are you still demanding more? Where is your disconnect coming from?

Every President before Obama has shown his long form birth certificate (which is the most official document), Obama has not. So I don't think this comment is accurate.

I am not demanding more, I haven't signed a petition. I think the reason others are demanding a single document is because of his grandma's comment ( the she retracted her comment later argument is pretty weak. Of course she would retract her comment later.). Because of these comments, unlike McCain/Romney's situation, they are unsure about his place of birth.

[Dinsdale!]

Every President before Obama has shown his long form birth certificate (which is the most official document), Obama has not. So I don't think this comment is accurate.

I am not demanding more, I haven't signed a petition. I think the reason others are demanding a single document is because of his grandma's comment ( the she retracted her comment later argument is pretty weak. Of course she would retract her comment later.). Because of these comments, unlike McCain/Romney's situation, they are unsure about his place of birth.

There isn't such a thing as a "most official" document. A document is either official or not. For what reason have other Presidential candidates shown their "long form birth certificate?" Is there an FEC form that requires it? I highly doubt that George Washington did it, so when did this start?

My understanding is that you do not take this position but have friends who do and that this is why you haven't done a lot of research on this position. Is that right? In that case two points

1. These are really brutal divisive claims. If you have friends saying this sort of things, take the effort to try to get to the bottom of it with the sort of questions I ask above. This isn't the sort of claim you should make without providing details.

2. If you have a friend who you think is the pinnacle of intelligent Obama birth discussion who disagrees with us and is excited to talk about it in a way you are not, we can talk to him here. (Send us the Birther Champion, and we shall vanquish him!)

[Zahir al Daoud]

All the people demanding to see Obama's birth certificate have several things in common. One of them is a total lack of any right to make such a demand. Registrars all across the country have that right. So did the State Department when Obama applied to get a passport. But people like Alan Keyes? No. They don't.

And demanding anyone "prove" themselves innocent of something absurd, for which there is no evidence whatsoever, is a sickening precedent. Really, what's next? A DNA test to prove he's not from Zeta Reticuli?

[IheartTesla]

I'll try this one more time:

I think he was born in Hawaii.

All birthers want to see is the long form birth certificate.

Takes like 3 seconds to photo copy.

This whole thing would be over.

Here you go. Which reminds me, his birthday is in exactly one week. And I havent got him a present yet!

Edit: I understand that is the shorter version of the birth certificate. Please dont email me.

[IheartTesla]

I'll show you the real one only if you get me DNA fragments of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. See, I'm on the fence as to whether he actually existed.

[Ector]

There isn't such a thing as a "most official" document. A document is either official or not. For what reason have other Presidential candidates shown their "long form birth certificate?" Is there an FEC form that requires it? I highly doubt that George Washington did it, so when did this start?

My understanding is that you do not take this position but have friends who do and that this is why you haven't done a lot of research on this position. Is that right? In that case two points

1. These are really brutal divisive claims. If you have friends saying this sort of things, take the effort to try to get to the bottom of it with the sort of questions I ask above. This isn't the sort of claim you should make without providing details.

2. If you have a friend who you think is the pinnacle of intelligent Obama birth discussion who disagrees with us and is excited to talk about it in a way you are not, we can talk to him here. (Send us the Birther Champion, and we shall vanquish him!)

The long-form birth certificate is recognized by more organizations in the Hawaiian government then the short-form. That makes it more official to me. As explained here:

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=100451

I have no birther friends. My view is this: 11% (Rassmussen I think says 11%) of the population would like a document that explains some history on the person who is responsible for the safety of their families, a fifth of their income, the job market ( and he wants responsibility over some of their medical decisions). The document is not hard to get ( somebody posted one here: http://www.gopmom.com/wp-content/uploads/2...icate-1963.jpg). You people call birthers insane for this. I wouldn't hire a nanny without a background check. You people say everything else should be enough for birthers (and it is enough for me). But if I asked this nanny for the number of a previous employer and she instead gave me the number of 20 people who knew the previous employer, I wouldn't be satisfied.

Why aren't you guys ragging on Obama for not showing the long-form birth certificate?

[Ector]

Yes, that is my right and I would like to see that now that you mention it.

I would also like to see conclusive proof that Willard "Mitt" Romney is, in fact, a human being and was not created in a laboratory.

You think a document that takes no-effort what so ever to show is on par with DNA evidence?

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

http://mediamatters.org/research/200907200033

[Foreverlad]

I'll show you the real one only if you get me DNA fragments of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. See, I'm on the fence as to whether he actually existed.

Like others have said, we want DNA fragments from Obama, just like you. :P

[IheartTesla]

The reason no hospital has his "long form birth certificate" on hand is because he was born in a manger.