What if... Robert had married Lyanna

[Daena the Defiant]

When he thought Lyanna was kidnapped and being raped, he was having an orgy with all the whores in the Peach...

This is, to me, the greatest insight into his soul.

He sucked.

[Lady Blackfish]

In Westeros we see relationships that span from coldly dutiful to ultra romantic, and I don't think either extreme can be said to "work". One is ice and the other is fire, blah blah blah.

The perhaps difficult point to make from the female perspective is that while things can work, it's sometimes a matter of luck, and that's no way to structure an entire social system. And it's possible to have a pretty comfortable life and still chafe at the fact that you had no say in the matter. Consider Dany's ruminations on the dosh khaleen: she knows it is a place of honor, that the crones are venerated and respected, but there is another destiny out there for her, one that speaks to her heart, one that involves her inborn identity rather than one derived from her husband.

I said earlier that Lyanna is practically focus-grouped to appeal to modern female readers: she is boyish, but attractively so, so she gets to be as cool as the boys and at the same time one can identify with her and feel attractive and desired (unlike Brienne). Maybe the trope doesn't stand out to everyone, but to me it's difficult to think that beautiful tomboy Lyanna, with her love of horseriding and existential angst-ridden desire for a man's lot, is not supposed to stick out in an "I am emblematic of a greater Feminine Question" kind of way.

I think her dissatisfaction with Robert, as it seems to have existed in her 15 year old self, is meant to be sympathetic, and theoretically (because, yes, we really don't know the whole story yet) so would be any unwillingness to make it work. Realistically, compromise is a part of life. Man or woman, you'd better develop some skills along those lines if you aim to have any kind of long-term relationship. But there comes a point where the principle matters, especially when things are so systematically structured to disfavor personal happiness. And I think that's what Lyanna's story is supposed to speak to, because she is so obviously appealing to modern tastes.

[nategator]

Interesting perspective and one I wouldn't have thought of. As a female fan, do you wish that there was a POV-character like Lyanna (cool like the boys yet attractive)? We have an Elizabethan Dany and tomboyish characters like Brienne and Arya (who could develop more like Lyanna although looks less and less likely with her assassin training) but no one who fits perfectly as an Lyanna-like POV. Is that enough? Or is it better to not have a Lyanna POV whose type I guess appears more regularly in the fantasy/sci-fi genre?

[Lady Blackfish]

As a female fan, do you wish that there was a POV-character like Lyanna (cool like the boys yet attractive)?

Me myself, not exactly, but it's a bit complicated. The elements that we have in Lyanna only feel so elemental and archetypic because they're all we have of her, and they're in a very specific context: romance and memory, social restriction and all this. The point is that I would not like a female character that felt too designed to be a fantasy. For me, the best characters in ASOIAF have some ugly side that they would want no one to ever see. Someone Famous once said that you are who you really are when nobody else is watching you. Lyanna, as is, has nothing about her that's ugly, it's all extremely asthetically appealing IMO, all the poetic melancholy and ephemeral angst. Her gendered conflict has an elevated feel, her exploits (according to popular fan theories regarding the Knight of the Laughing Tree) gain her male attention, in fact she is thoroughly defined by being valuable and unforgettable to male characters. But we can't say that this is definitively who she is, because it's quite obvious that she is defined by how she is seen by others. That's the point, that's the role she plays, she's intentionally a memory, a muse, a myth. We see her through the POV of the brother who loved her, the man who loved her, the girl whose brother abandoned his wife for her, the woman who played second fiddle to her all her life; these are all part of the romantic tableau (even her brothers contextualize her as a "little sister", thus making her might and strength somehow more exceptional ... I dunno, it's hard to explain, but there's a sort of romance in being the tough little sister of a cohort of protective men).

If we had her POV, then arguably she couldn't really play this muse role, just like I bet Robb would come across as much more real, much less magical boy hero, if he had his own POV. She has this aura because it depends on mystery and that's what she remains, that's why she matters. That's why I say our interest in her is more like in a fable or myth than in a person, even though this lack-of-personhood granted the archetypal muse figure is part of her theme.

Asha kind of also has the boyish-yet-hot dynamic, I think she's a better comparison than Brienne, since she's cool like the boys and she's really attractive (not pretty maybe, but a great body, and her charisma totally hits up a certain kink). But she has other things to her character, the most noteworthy being that we can see that her tough girl is something she had to consciously learn and play at to deal with the gender dynamics of her world. This brings her down to earth, it makes her mystique a survival tactic, and that's just a lot more real.

There's nothing wrong with a girl being similar to guys either, nor is it evil to be desired by the opposite sex. It's just that with Lyanna, what we know is so condensed and from such a specific context. Lyanna's the only girl among her family, the only other women in her little tale are women who are not as desirable as she is (Elia, passed over by Rhaegar, and Cersei, never The One for Robert). Ned, Robert and Rhaegar also all Great Men, in a manner of speaking, so their greatness is part of how she derives her value and stature (you can read the thread and find comments like "She must have been something for two great men to have fought for her" -- it's very archetypic, a woman's value being determined by how much destruction possessing her causes). And it's hard to find a narrative platform from which to view her desires as part of her own narrative instead of traits to make her seem alluring. There is a sense that the romanticization she's subject to is dehumanizing, it totally misses who she is underneath, but it's hard to get a picture of any part of her authentic self that might *gasp* not be overtly attractive. So it's like, we know something else was there, but there is still no there there.

I don't know if this makes any sense :worried: It's not that there is anything "lesser" about being a tomboy, tomboys do exist and it's just as valid a female character, but it often can come across as a way to elevate a female character in a kind of special snowflake way, especially when being a tomboy has a resonance with social norms. Basically, I wouldn't like a Lyanna POV if Lyanna was fantastically, sparkly perfect, simply because I don't like perfect characters, I don't believe them, especially in ASOIAF. I think it's possible to take the themes of Lyanna and do interestingly subversive things with them, possibly very de-mystifying, which is what I'd want. On the turn of a dime, Lyanna can go from something rather trite to something really subversive.

(For example, I remember when I was a youngster I was writing this story about a girl who was the only daughter in a family of brothers headed by a father and no mother. I made a specific point of giving her a very sharp personality, one that got on her brothers' nerves. She didn't exist simply to have that only-woman-in-the-room aura. She was annoying, pretentious, embarrassingly precocious, inquisitive to the point where it caused real problems instead of faux ones that only served to highlight her desirability and otherworldly allure, since she really didn't have any. She was a little sister, but it didn't make people want to protect the body too small to contain her untameable wild spirit, yadda yadda. It made people want to leave her at home or pretend not to know her, and you would understand why, because you, the reader, would have found her annoying too.)

Does any of this, uh, make sense? I always find it a bit difficult to organize my thoughts on Lyanna, she's someone I love to analyze yet have some kind of ambivalence about.

[The Gallows Knight]

Damn, lot of hate for Robert. Sure he was a fat drunk, sure he developed an abusive relationship with his wife (to be be fair, she was abusive in her own way and any sympathy that I had for her disappeared what with her already being a completely monster and murderer before she even meet Robert), and sure he did love whoring around. He was a crappy king and a bad husband (but I wouldn't wish being married to his queen on anyone) but there was just something about him. Underneath everything he seemed to be a genuinely likable and nice guy. The guy who has his friend's backs, the guy you want to drink with, and the guy you want to hang out with. Robert's problem was his willpower, or lack there of. He couldn't say no to himself. He couldn't force himself to work through the duties of being a king, a father, or a husband. The one time in his life that he ever did anything of serious note was his rebellion and look what it took to get him to do that. His best friend's father and brother were killed, the woman he was going to marry was apparently kidnapped, and the king ordered that he and his best friend be turned over to the crown. When forced to Robert could accomplish the near impossible, however he seems to have been forced to do very little in his life. In a bad situation, such as the one we find King Bob in at the start of the story, a man like him is broken and surrendered to his vices. Had he been pushed the other way, or had he the ability to force himself to, he could have accomplished alot. If left to his own devices, well he would probably still be a bit fat but he would be a lot more jolly about things.

I have no idea about the feels that Lyanna had for Robert or how their life would have been together, I know so little about her. (I would hope that if they were together she would have pushed him to accomplish great things and be a better person, but I don't know) Though, if she was so concerned about him being unfaithful why did she run off with a dude who is already married and has children?

The only things that Robert did that really bothered me were that he was neglectful of his children and he wasted his treasury. I wouldn't want him as my king but I wouldn't mind having a beer or twelve with him.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

I won't say much, except to say this:

I like Robert. Even with all his drinking, whoring, and (sadly, yes) domestic violence, I like his character. I don't know why that is, maybe because I think he'd be really fun to get hammered with. Kind of like a Barney type character from HIMYM, you want to hang out with him but you don't want him dating your sister.

I don't think he would have (ended up) being a good husband to Lyanna, as a tiger can't change its stripes and he would have eventually given in to the drink and the whores (maybe not the DV, out of love and respect for Ned, but who knows) I definitely don't think Lyanna would have stood for his philandering or his drunkeness.

Bad as Robert could be (and his personal behavior was atrocious) I still think he was basically a good person. Hell, Hitler never drank or smoked or ate red meat and only had a handful of sexual relationships in his entire life (one of which was admittedly...too familiar) and yet no one is accusing him of being a Saint based on his personal behavior. Robert may have "plunged" Westeros into Civil War, but to be fair Aerys has something to do with it getting to the point where it could be plunged into Civil War.

As for Rhaegar...how anyone can defend him as being any better than Robert when it comes to extra-marital affairs is beyond me. Just because he had one affair, that's OK? Lyanna said Robert would never change his ways, but it's OK for her to assume that Rhaegar wouldn't keep on finding new chicks to "kidnap"?

To sum up: No one is perfect, even Rhaegar. Robert may have been a shitty husband (and King) but he wasn't any worse than alot of other characters out there who are better husbands and rulers (Tywin Lannister), but are atrocious when it comes to a human rights POV.

[Datepalm]

The guy who has his friend's backs, the guy you want to drink with, and the guy you want to hang out with. Robert's problem was his willpower, or lack there of. He couldn't say no to himself. He couldn't force himself to work through the duties of being a king, a father, or a husband.

OK, I take issue with this. Robert is a terrible friend, by all indications. We have not a single memory from Ned or anyone of Robert coming through for them, but lots of the opposite. When Ned needs Robert to be a friend, to have his back, to, oh, not kill his daughters wolf, or listen to sense for a bit, or anything really - Robert flunks spectacularly.

I find Robert more or less inoffenssive on the political scale - certainly, he's no Hitler. Likewise, being a terrible politician and administrator is not a particulalry damning quality. Its percisely on the level of personal likeability, morality and behaviour that Robert is a total abject failure. Cheating fiancee, unreliable friend, abusive husband, absent parent. No sense of responsibility, duty or empathy. And he's willing to kill children.

Seriously, how do you guys pick your friends? I'm sure Robert is going to be fun for a night out, but are you really still going to be friends with him after your car breaks down in the middle of a snowstorm and he says he'll come pick you up but you instead find yourself crawling into a hospital with hypothermia three days later to have your foot amputated because he decided he was gonna take a detour to Vegas instead? Being a friend is about more than being fun to have a drink with in my neck of the woods, and Robert shows none of those qualities.

[Datepalm]

dp

[DizoakiusMaximus]

I find Robert more or less inoffenssive on the political scale - certainly, he's no Hitler. Likewise, being a terrible politician and administrator is not a particulalry damning quality. Its percisely on the level of personal likeability, morality and behaviour that Robert is a total abject failure. Cheating fiancee, unreliable friend, abusive husband, absent parent. No sense of responsibility, duty or empathy. And he's willing to kill children.

What child was he willing to kill? Are you talking about how he said Bran would be better off dead? That's hardly the same thing as actually doing it, or actively comissioning someone to do it (unlike his sociopathic not-son Joffery) I agree that he is, on a personal level, a terrible person (bad husband, bad father (not that they're his), drunk, etc etc.) my point is that by your definition of a "good husband, good father, etc etc" then Tywin Lannister would be the best damn person in the world. He was a devoted husband and father (well, 2 out of 3 isn't bad), and had a personal reputation beyond reproach and yet he was a monster.

Seriously, how do you guys pick your friends? I'm sure Robert is going to be fun for a night out, but are you really still going to be friends with him after your car breaks down in the middle of a snowstorm and he says he'll come pick you up but you instead find yourself crawling into a hospital with hypothermia three days later to have your foot amputated because he decided he was gonna take a detour to Vegas instead? Being a friend is about more than being fun to have a drink with in my neck of the woods, and Robert shows none of those qualities.

The other thing is; there's a difference (at least for guys) between a "friend" who you hang out with, get drunk with, go carousing with and a "Friend" who you depend on to be there for you in any situation no matter how bad. I try to keep those sorts of friends seperate: I wouldn't want to hang out with anyone other than I do, but I wouldn't call on them to help me (in your theorized snowstorm) out precisely because they're so unreliable when it comes to important stuff. I have responsible friends who I can depend on for that sort of thing, and who can depend on me to help them out, but precisely because they're so responsible, they don't fit into the whole "drinking, carousing, etc etc" scene.

Robert fits into the first category (at least if he was my friend). Of course, if he were my friend, and I knew about his philandering and DV incidents, I think there'd be a big talk coming about what an asshole he's been and how he needs to shape up or he's going to be out of friends soon...etc,etc...

I don't think I would have put any faith in Robert being able to save Lady, besides the fact that Cersei has such power over him in so many different areas, I think he's honestly wary of these wild (and very dangerous) animals being in such close proximity to so many people. Its a theme throughout the series that people don't trust the wolves, except for the Starks (and even Catelyn hated them at first) Ned could have easily arranged an escape for Lady had he thought about it for two seconds, take her out to the woods, have Jory Cassel waiting there and take her back to Winterfell. But that's besides the point.

Robert is bad, sure. He is far from the worst.

[Datepalm]

Robert is bad, sure. He is far from the worst.

I don't think hes the worst. I think Tywin is the worst.:)

You're kind of damning him with faint praise here, from my perspective: Wouldn't count on him, wouldn't trust him, wouldn't be one of those close friends...but by jove he'll be the first person I invite to a frat party!

I'm ok with that, I just don't think theres much to admire there when even people who say they like you can come up with just that, one, quality in your defence.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

I don't think hes the worst. I think Tywin is the worst.:)

You're kind of damning him with faint praise here, from my perspective: Wouldn't count on him, wouldn't trust him, wouldn't be one of those close friends...but by jove he'll be the first person I invite to a frat party!

I'm ok with that, I just don't think theres much to admire there when even people who say they like you can come up with just that, one, quality in your defence.

Tywin is definitely the worst...well as far as people in a political position go...Gregor Clegane is the Worst (with a capital "W" you'll notice) :)

As far as your definition of "close" friend is, it again, is not what mine is. Would I depend on the "frat boys" (and I use that term with nothing but affection, as I used to be one) to help me out in a matter of dire urgency?

Some of them, yeah. Absolutely.

Sadly, those people live pretty far away now, so I rarely see them, but I imagine that if I (for example) needed a place to hide from the law, I could call on at least a few of them and they would help me out. (again, the really responsible ones, the ones you refer to coming to get you in a snowstorm, those aren't the ones you ask for help like that, because they're married or they have kids and to ask them for help in a situation like that and have them refuse (not get lost in Vegas coming to get you, but flat out refuse) precisely because they're married or have kids or what-have-you, that's a friendship killer. So why put good friends in that position? My car breaks down in a snowstorm? That's what AAA is for, and also, way to be a moron and drive a shitty break-down prone car through a snowstorm, that's just God's way of telling you to stay the fuck inside a house. <_<

Okay, but anyway. I'm shutting up about King Bob for now. :)

[Datepalm]

To be fair, we don't actually have frats here. Or snow storms.

<_<

[Blue Steel]

What child was he willing to kill? Are you talking about how he said Bran would be better off dead? That's hardly the same thing as actually doing it, or actively comissioning someone to do it (unlike his sociopathic not-son Joffery) I agree that he is, on a personal level, a terrible person (bad husband, bad father (not that they're his), drunk, etc etc.) my point is that by your definition of a "good husband, good father, etc etc" then Tywin Lannister would be the best damn person in the world. He was a devoted husband and father (well, 2 out of 3 isn't bad), and had a personal reputation beyond reproach and yet he was a monster.

Actually, he did. He condoned what the Lannisters did to Rhaegar and Elia's infant children. Then he hired assassins to kill Viserys and Daenarys on multiple occasions. And even in A Game of Thrones, he got into a fight with Ned about hiring more assassins to kill Daenarys.

Robert was a terrible king, to be sure.

[Alexia]

Actually, he did. He condoned what the Lannisters did to Rhaegar and Elia's infant children. Then he hired assassins to kill Viserys and Daenarys on multiple occasions. And even in A Game of Thrones, he got into a fight with Ned about hiring more assassins to kill Daenarys.

Only the one set of assassins was hired (it's mentioned that Jon Arryn stopped him, before) but Ned, who knows him well, firmly believed that Robert would have killed all three of Cersei's children...the youngest of whom was seven IIRC.

He definitely has no problem with killing children.

[The Gallows Knight]

The other thing is; there's a difference (at least for guys) between a "friend" who you hang out with, get drunk with, go carousing with and a "Friend" who you depend on to be there for you in any situation no matter how bad. I try to keep those sorts of friends seperate: I wouldn't want to hang out with anyone other than I do, but I wouldn't call on them to help me (in your theorized snowstorm) out precisely because they're so unreliable when it comes to important stuff. I have responsible friends who I can depend on for that sort of thing, and who can depend on me to help them out, but precisely because they're so responsible, they don't fit into the whole "drinking, carousing, etc etc" scene.

I wholeheartedly agree. I already have enough friends who now have families and mortgages I could use some more drinking and carousing friends as it is.

I don't think hes the worst. I think Tywin is the worst.:)You're kind of damning him with faint praise here, from my perspective: Wouldn't count on him, wouldn't trust him, wouldn't be one of those close friends...but by jove he'll be the first person I invite to a frat party! I'm ok with that, I just don't think theres much to admire there when even people who say they like you can come up with just that, one, quality in your defence.

It really is a personal preference. For me, being fun and jovial can count for an awful lot. I don't know really. I can't help but like the man and sometimes that is all that you need.

[Storm-queen]

I think that Robert and Lyanna would have had a happy, and relatively faithful marriage. Robert was in love with her and cherished and respected her memory even fifteen years after her death. He confided in Ned that it was the girl he wanted, not the throne. He also confided to Ned that he's never felt deader inside than since he won it. For Robert, I believe, he felt that he lost the war because he did not get what he ultimately wanted, his heart's desire. As for Robert's unfaithfulness, I think he would definitely have tried to keep to his bed and would certainly have been fairly successful. There were a lot of lords who fathered bastards and weren't considered any more evil or unfaithful than others.

As for Lynna, she did not know Robert the way Ned did, but she would have done her duty and counted on the fact that her father (and her brother) would have made her a good match with kind and honourable man. I believe that she was fond of Robert but would have certainly have grown to love him deeply. Why? Because....They were both similar: gorgeous, dark-haired, wild and brave. They would have challenged each other. Robert was never one for books but he would have been good, kind, brave... (As Stannis said, I never bested him at anything).

She with the wolf blood, and Robert with the fury of the Storm Lord. This is one of the great tragedies of the series, that this marriage was not meant to be. It will likely be through Arya and Gendry and this is corrected somehow. The descendants of Lyanna and Robert will make right what went wrong.

Of course, everything happened for a reason and Jon needed to be born to help save the realm from the Others (spoilers) but still... Robert ultimately lost his way after Lynna was taken from him, and he never recovered. He drowned his misery in wine and women and entertainments but he showed promise all the same at the beginning. His gift for turning enemies into friends is innate and due to his being a true hero... His misery in his marriage and his firstborn (he could never understood how he had sinned to make such a son as Joffrey) led him to do what he wanted to feel better about this pain and his demons. It demonstrates that he felt lost and scared and cornered and could not see an out. He never wanted the throne.

However, I think that Donal Noye had it right from the beginning. Robert was a like an excellently forged sword - needed to be used otherwise it would go to rust and dull.

Donal Noye also said that Robert was the true steel. It was meant to be a compliment.

[Pod The Impaler]

I think that Robert and Lyanna would have had a happy, and relatively faithful marriage. Robert was in love with her and cherished and respected her memory even fifteen years after her death. He confided in Ned that it was the girl he wanted, not the throne. He also confided to Ned that he's never felt deader inside than since he won it. For Robert, I believe, he felt that he lost the war because he did not get what he ultimately wanted, his heart's desire. As for Robert's unfaithfulness, I think he would definitely have tried to keep to his bed and would certainly have been fairly successful. There were a lot of lords who fathered bastards and weren't considered any more evil or unfaithful than others.

As for Lynna, she did not know Robert the way Ned did, but she would have done her duty and counted on the fact that her father (and her brother) would have made her a good match with kind and honourable man. I believe that she was fond of Robert but would have certainly have grown to love him deeply. Why? Because....They were both similar: gorgeous, dark-haired, wild and brave. They would have challenged each other. Robert was never one for books but he would have been good, kind, brave... (As Stannis said, I never bested him at anything).

She with the wolf blood, and Robert with the fury of the Storm Lord. This is one of the great tragedies of the series, that this marriage was not meant to be. It will likely be through Arya and Gendry and this is corrected somehow. The descendants of Lyanna and Robert will make right what went wrong.

Of course, everything happened for a reason and Jon needed to be born to help save the realm from the Others (spoilers) but still... Robert ultimately lost his way after Lynna was taken from him, and he never recovered. He drowned his misery in wine and women and entertainments but he showed promise all the same at the beginning. His gift for turning enemies into friends is innate and due to his being a true hero... His misery in his marriage and his firstborn (he could never understood how he had sinned to make such a son as Joffrey) led him to do what he wanted to feel better about this pain and his demons. It demonstrates that he felt lost and scared and cornered and could not see an out. He never wanted the throne.

However, I think that Donal Noye had it right from the beginning. Robert was a like an excellently forged sword - needed to be used otherwise it would go to rust and dull.

Donal Noye also said that Robert was the true steel. It was meant to be a compliment.

Yeah,. it could go either way.

Even if the married and it went badly, I don't think it was going the way of Cersei and Robert. That's as toxic a marriage as one sees without someone named Clegane, Craster or Bolton being involved. Robert was a brute to Cersei at times, and she was always ruthlessly undercutting to him. And they both demeaned and disrespected each other. He never really wanted her (well, not me than any other random girl), nor was she ever true to him. Cersei was no shrinking violet, she certainly didn't keep quiet in response Robert's faults, but her own cheating went on same as his did (and with her brother). And she always kept her eyes on the "prize" so to speak - herself as Queen, her Lannister children ruling once her husband drank himself to death. She essentially bought her power with all the annoyance and contempt her marriage, such as over his drinking and whoring. I think she preferred whatever took him out of the picture, and his carousing only dented her pride because of what people said about her.

Contrast that with Lyanna Stark. There are parts of the text where Eddard states Robert never really knew her. She was no compliant little flower, she was wilful and wild. I think she'd have been angrier than Cersei about Robert's carousing, but I think she would also make clear to him before they tied the knot, with an ultimatum: if he kept it up, she'd hack his nuts off. (And with her this would be no empty threat.) He could either be true to his claims of loving her, and stop, or else

suffer her wrath.

[Give Cersei some LOVE]

I pity lyanna. she would just be another bitter cersei.