Israeli Forces attack Aid Flotilla to Gaza

[CloudFlare]

The defenders.

Is anyone reminded of the scene of the hedge fellowship in TMK?

[harrol]

In the state of Arkansas where you said you live it is only allowed against suspected felons who've caused or are likely to cause "serious physical harm" to the officer or other people. They are not allowed to use lethal force against civilians or protesters.

Hence why I said if they are going to use "lethal force". To take up a weapon against another person is automatically a felony in Arkansas in most cases. So read my post next time completely instead of just arguing.

[Amir]

The Israeli supporters in this thread seem to only be using Israeli news reports and Israeli government reports as their evidence supporting the IDF's actions. They also seem to believe that this is all the evidence they need to prove that Israel was right. However, if lets say the situation was the same expect Israel is replaced by the U.S. and Gaza by Iraq/Afghanistan, how would these same people be reacting to U.S. reports of the incident? Would we not be hearing from all corners of the globe that you can't trust the U.S. reports on the issue? People would laugh in your face if you tried to say well here is a statement from the US government that clearly shows we were in the right, and here is more evidence supported by an American professors and Ambassadors.

I guess I am just amazed that some people in this thread have used statements issued by the Israeli government as proof that the IDF was justifiable in their actions. Would a government, especially in a situation like this, put out any information except that which supported their stance?

sadly i read cnn fox and sky in any crisis like that.

and we do get the same information as you get.

[The Progressive]

I hope Turkey calls Israel's bluff and provided the next aid flotilla with armed convoys.

Note that the official response from Israel has shifted from armed resistance to sharp objects to throwing chairs now, much to the dismay of the usual clamoring horde of useful Israel idiotic apologists on this board, lol.

[Galactus]

Is anyone reminded of the scene of the hedge fellowship in TMK?

TMK?

[Happy Ent]

I hope Turkey calls Israel's bluff and provided the next aid flotilla with armed convoys.

That’s an interesting opinion, which startles me. Why do you say that?

Do you think it is difficult to get aid into Gaza?

Or do you actually think the situation would improve from further escalation?

(For the record, I’d probably disagree with both opinions.)

[Amir]

I hope Turkey calls Israel's bluff and provided the next aid flotilla with armed convoys.

Note that the official response from Israel has shifted from armed resistance to sharp objects to throwing chairs now, much to the dismay of the usual clamoring horde of useful Israel idiotic apologists on this board, lol.

they are videos showing stab wounds on the soldiers look them up

an israeli idiotic bluffer thats me i guess

[The Space Pope]

That’s an interesting opinion, which startles me. Why do you say that?

Do you think it is difficult to get aid into Gaza?

Um, yes it is.

I like this one personally: http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45913

UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) officials explained to Kerry that Israel was only permitting limited amounts of humanitarian aid into Gaza, and the definition of what the Israelis consider humanitarian was restricted.

"Pasta is not regarded as humanitarian aid and is not allowed in to Gaza while rice is," an UNRWA official told Kerry.

Kerry then questioned Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak directly about the logic of the restriction on pasta. Following his intervention, the truckloads of pasta were eventually permitted to enter Gaza.

Or do you actually think the situation would improve from further escalation?

(For the record, I’d probably disagree with both opinions.)

I think Turkey actually taking a stand against Israel might force Israel to change their attitude and actions somewhat.

The question is, will Israel continue to posture and push their only real pseudo-ally in the region further way from them or will they back down somewhat and issue an apology or some such?

[harrol]

Um, yes it is.

I like this one personally: http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45913

I think Turkey actually taking a stand against Israel might force Israel to change their attitude and actions somewhat.

The question is, will Israel continue to posture and push their only real pseudo-ally in the region further way from them or will they back down somewhat and issue an apology or some such?

Since when has taking a forceful approach against Israel yielded anything good?

[tzanth]

I hope Turkey calls Israel's bluff and provided the next aid flotilla with armed convoys.

Thats a very scary concept. Do you really think Israel is bluffing? Ten dead people doesn't seem like much of a bluff to me.

Note that the official response from Israel has shifted from armed resistance to sharp objects to throwing chairs now, much to the dismay of the usual clamoring horde of useful Israel idiotic apologists on this board, lol.

Haven't you seen those videos? Not that it makes Israels response acceptable, but those soldiers were being subject to pretty extreme violence by the people on the boat.

[The Progressive]

That’s an interesting opinion, which startles me. Why do you say that?

Do you think it is difficult to get aid into Gaza?

Or do you actually think the situation would improve from further escalation?

(For the record, I’d probably disagree with both opinions.)

It's difficult to get cement and other construction materials into Gaza. Other types of material (bulk foodstuff, clothings, medicines, water, etc.) are often subjected to bizzare and whimsical seizures by IDF goons at the checkpoint.

Given that all peaceful measures are futile and were met with violence by IDF goons, escalation seems to be the only remaining option against bullying jackbooted thugs. That or slowly starve and withered to a slave caste dependent on Israeli's whim.

[Happy Ent]

Um, yes it is. [...] “Pasta is not regarded as humanitarian aid and is not allowed in to Gaza while rice is,”

C’mon. This is about people’s right to pasta for you?

Do you, or do you not, agree with the stance that the flotilla was a deliberate and cynical provocation to test Israeli willingness to enforce its sea blockade?

(Note that one can answer “yes” do that question and still think that Israel acted in violation of various international laws, as well as the principle of adequate force, for example.)

[The Progressive]

Thats a very scary concept. Do you really think Israel is bluffing? Ten dead people doesn't seem like much of a bluff to me.

Haven't you seen those videos? Not that it makes Israels response acceptable, but those soldiers were being subject to pretty extreme violence by the people on the boat.

I expect similar reaction from people whose ships were boarded by armed pirates.

[Amir]

Um, yes it is.

I like this one personally: http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45913

I think Turkey actually taking a stand against Israel might force Israel to change their attitude and actions somewhat.

The question is, will Israel continue to posture and push their only real pseudo-ally in the region further way from them or will they back down somewhat and issue an apology or some such?

the new turkish goverment was hostile since day one .

we never had problems with turkey untill they were chosen .

for the last years they are big iran/iraq supporters .

turkey wont change a thing since she is no longer considered as a friendly country,

[The Space Pope]

C’mon. This is about people’s right to pasta for you?

Do you, or do you not, agree with the stance that the flotilla was a deliberate and cynical provocation to test Israeli willingness to enforce its sea blockade?

(Note that one can answer “yes” do that question and still think that Israel acted in violation of various international laws, as well as the principle of adequate force, for example.)

No, I think it was an attempt to bring supplies to Gaza along with a deliberate PR move to get more international attention on the issue of the Gaza blockade. (Why are you using the word "cynical" here? What's the purpose other then to try and disparage people bringing humanitarian aid?) The ultimate point being to ... lift or lessen the blockade and get more supplies to the people in Gaza.

And it isn't about pasta, it's what you asked for: A demonstration of the difficulty of getting supplies into Gaza. The rules on what gets through are restrictive and arbitrary.

And, to bring it back to my first paragraph, the only thing that got that pasta through was (dun DUN!!!!!) International Attention. Which is the point of the flotilla.

[Dornish]

I find the unflinching, uncritical loyalty of 100% of the Israelis I have (knowingly) encountered online to be fascinating. When America engages in questionable actions, a good half of Americans (or more) question if what our government did was correct. One can bet that had America committed this same act that most of the Americans here would still hold the same opinion they do now. What is it about Israel that makes all government action completely beyond reproach to its citizens? Or have I just encountered an odd sample?

[tzanth]

I expect similar reaction from people whose ships were boarded by armed pirates.

Bull shit. If heavily armed pirates boarded your ship you wouldn't attack them with clubs cause you know that they would shoot you if you did. These people attacked the Israelis with clubs because they knew they would have to use some degree of violence to provoke the same from the soldiers. It's impossible to divorce this incident from its political connotations, as the pirate analogy attempts to do.

[The Space Pope]

Thats a very scary concept. Do you really think Israel is bluffing? Ten dead people doesn't seem like much of a bluff to me.

I think Israel doesn't want to fuck with Turkey anymore then Turkey wants to fuck with Israel.

The point here (as it so often is, especially in the middle east) is dick waving.

Turkey postures, Israel postures back and eventually Israel probably concedes something to mollify the Turks. (an apology or something like that)

With like, what, 7 Turks dead, they are gonna want SOMETHING.

[Happy Ent]

It's difficult to get cement and other construction materials into Gaza. Other types of material (bulk foodstuff, clothings, medicines, water, etc.) are often subjected to bizzare and whimsical seizures by IDF goons at the checkpoint.

[fitheach]

Hence why I said if they are going to use "lethal force". To take up a weapon against another person is automatically a felony in Arkansas in most cases. So read my post next time completely instead of just arguing.

I did read your post completely, maybe you should go back and read it again and see how it could look to others. What I was suggesting was in respose to your post that said exactly:

"Well that depends on where you are at. The state I work for if lethal force is going to be used against me in the line of duty I am allowed to use lethal force"....

You didn't say the person who was using lethal force is a felon. This would suggest you're connecting the people on the ship (that was boarded by IDF) are guilty of some crime and were attacking the soldiers (which does justify lethal force), rather than defending themselves (which does not justify lethal force). It seemed you were suggesting they deserved lethal force as opposed to say, restraint and regrouping.

Whatever the IDF thought it was accomplishing with the boarding, they obviously didn't think things through.

1.If the IDF actually thought this ship and it's passengers were running guns (or concrete :shocked: ), why would the IDF send so few soldiers if they expected some force?

2.If the IDF thought the ship was just trying to get a response (as they did) out of them for their own "terrorist" PR spin, why did they give it to them?

Could it be that the people on board were afraid and defended themselves with what they had (chairs, sticks and some knives) and were shot down for it. What's the surprise here? It's not like the IDF hasn't shot down civilians who throw sticks and rocks at them before.

Or maybe they thought they were being boarded by pirates. Happens...People do funny things when they're at the end of a gun, like try to defend themselves. :leaving: