Rethinking Stannis

[Summer]

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He's a kinslayer once (Renly), he's probably would be a kinslayer again if he had Edric Storm, and now he's beyond the point of wisdom.

I've always thought that he wasn't a kinslayer in the normal sense. He's not actually killed hos brother. His shade, through Melissandre was the culprit...

Overall, out of all the "normal" kinslaying, Stannis' is the one with which I relate the most. I'm sure he honestly believed that killing his brother was the best thing for the realm. If he had won the battle at Kings Landing, he would have been right.

This is basically the Hiroshima argument. To be clear on the matter, I'm not condoning it, I only saying I can understand the justification... Also it is not all that surprising from the type of character Stannis is.

Finally, whilst re-reading the final SOS chapters, I couldn't help thinking Stannis is actually much nicer than one is lead to believe. From his obvious discomfort at being labelled the Prince that was Promised to his discussion with Jon.. Stannis is (slightly) open minded and more importantly, practical.

Something Westeros needs at the moment.

SPOILER: ADwD SPOILER

He obviously takes Jon's opinion in mind when deciding to ride South.

[Walpurgisborn]

edited to remove post because someone else was a lot faster on the one liners.

[TLL17]

You know, Stan has this wee little problem.

He's intelligent, can be ruthless, tenacious, willing to sacrifice himself, identifies with the good of the Kingdom over personal desires, and has even proven willing to sacrifice for it. Is just in dealing with others. And he does not allow mercy to get in the way of expediency, the highest virtue of any state. He's even shown himself to be flexible, at least with Mel's advice on going to the Wall. He's practical, hardworking, pragmatic, and driven by duty and has common sense. Moreover, he has demonstrated the capacity to do whatever is necessary to acheive goals he believes to be in the interests of the state and its people.

From the perspective of political morality, as opposed to that of individual morality, especially in the classical liberal sense (which I believe to be utterly inappriopriate for politics where the basic unit is the group, and not the individual, imho), all of these are great things. Ordinarily, he'd be a terrific leader.

Problem is: "Its better to be feared than loved, but NEVER HATED."

People HATE Stannis.

So far Dany's path has indicated that she may be feared or loved, or both as a rular in the future. She also has enemies, of course; but that is the inevitable byproduct of the business of ruling and political conflict.

But Dany isn't HATED.

And Stannis IS, doing everything he can to earn the emnity of others through the negative charisma of his personality.

I'll stick with Machiavelli here. Regardless of anything else and no matter how much she screws up her rule of the slaver city, this alone makes Dany the better rular. For that matter, an oafish fool and incompetant like Robert cut the mustard better than Stannis.

Why does this matter?

As ironmaid pointed out:

"Well, my experience and understanding is that moralizers, having a strong need to feel they are doing the right thing, tend to slip into believing they are the right thing. It is a short step from there to viewing themselves as having the right to be above the rules. Our Stan fills in this role pretty well."

And with Stannis, its obvious and often openly conveyed, hardwired to his personality, thus making him insufferable, and what a great excuse for people to HATE him.

[A Bengali Menace]

Sure it wasn't a purely altruistic act but a way to show he deserved to be king, but other than Gandhi and Mother Teresa in our world and maybe Maester Aemon in Martin's, who really acts from altruism?

Although you mention two of my real-life heroes, you must recall that neither was politically astute. Gandhi thought Hitler was a great leader for Germany and Teresa was a supporter of the Duvaliers...

[Maester Cressan]

Stevem, Ned and Robb were only whacked after they had done substantial things. Up until now Gendry and Edric have not done anything to affect the story. I do not believe that GRRM would spend so much time building these characters if they do not somehow change the events like Robb or Ned. I agree that they might be killed in the future one never knows with GRRM but only after they do something 'big'. I do not believe that they will be able to achieve anything with their 'bastard' status, so that means the last trueborn 'Baratheon' has to die for them to be able to have an impact. The only possible impact that I think they can have is through their father's blood and that would be claiming their rights. It is possible that one of them might marry Stannis' daughter to legitimize his claim (possibly Edric), I don't know.

I have always half-thought that the Brotherhood would find out that Gendry was a Baratheon (since he looks like Robert and Renly) and would crown him as the "King for the smallfolk" with the idea being that the smallfolk would rally to a "king" who defends them, and that some of the nobles might be willing to back someone who is so obviously an inheritor of the Baratheon charisma and strength. The plan would fail of course, but still, it would make a great story for the bards to sing of- the smallfolk King- and then have their tounges cut out for singing it.

[The Wolf]

I think that this thread should be re-named "metaphysical and moral philosophy and how it relates to Westeros". What do you think?

lol. I love how thread has started with a view on Stannis and has become a debate on morals, theology etc.

[Jon Targaryen]

I have always half-thought that the Brotherhood would find out that Gendry was a Baratheon (since he looks like Robert and Renly) and would crown him as the "King for the smallfolk" with the idea being that the smallfolk would rally to a "king" who defends them, and that some of the nobles might be willing to back someone who is so obviously an inheritor of the Baratheon charisma and strength. The plan would fail of course, but still, it would make a great story for the bards to sing of- the smallfolk King- and then have their tounges cut out for singing it.

That is quite possible with what happened in AFFC. But I think Edric is destined to lead the BWB and re-unite them. He was Beric's squire, just like Jon was Jeor's. He is noble, unlike anyone else in the BWB besides Stoneheart.

[Khaled]

All dany has done was just fuck the right people, hatch her dragons, and BOOM! suddenly people kiss her ass because since she has 3 dragons, she must obviously be suited for leader ship.

Yeah, right.

Huh?

I just finished re-reading the first 3 before fetting into AFFC so I'm basing my response from Books 1-3.

"Fuck the right people"...?? You make her into a whore. She was sleeping with her HUSBAND. And I hope you don't try to say that she married him for political reasons. Lest we forget, her brother married her off. She made the best of it and did fall in love with him. Only other person she had any sexual relations with was her handmaid. Do you think that gained her anything?

I love the way you say "all dany has done..." For her age, I think she's doing EXTREMELY well as a leader. I'm not going to say anything else about this except you should re-read Dany's chapters and try to tell me again she hasn't been through or accomplished anything.

[TLL17]

Huh?

I just finished re-reading the first 3 before fetting into AFFC so I'm basing my response from Books 1-3.

"Fuck the right people"...?? You make her into a whore. She was sleeping with her HUSBAND. And I hope you don't try to say that she married him for political reasons. Lest we forget, her brother married her off. She made the best of it and did fall in love with him. Only other person she had any sexual relations with was her handmaid. Do you think that gained her anything?

I love the way you say "all dany has done..." For her age, I think she's doing EXTREMELY well as a leader. I'm not going to say anything else about this except you should re-read Dany's chapters and try to tell me again she hasn't been through or accomplished anything.

You're absolutely right, Khaled.

Anyone who disses Dany in such a flippant way should remember the Monty Python routine "What has the Roman Empire ever done for me (or was it 'us')?"

[Diva]

I'm not so flippant about it. But I think the point being made was that a lot of the 'luck' around Dany has been due to the actions of others. Not all, certainly.

- but she didn't pick her husband, he was chosen because he lead an army

- she didn't get the dragon eggs herself, they were a gift

- the whole Drogo / baby death thing was due to a major mistake on her part

- that mistake lead her to work out what needed to be done to hatch the dragons - which she did do herself of course - but Mizi Murr whatever told her the information

and then other stuff. She never intended to pay the agreed price for the Unsullied. Good tricksy plan, sure, but I don't admire the actions etc.

She has made a lot of mistakes, but few of them other than the deaths of Drogo and Rhaego have affected her personally. Other people seem to bear the brunt of her errors.

[Ealasaid]

WAY OFF TOPIC: All can skip except NYC Falcon!

Heh heh, did you ever read Christopher Hitchens on Mother T? He really skewered her.

She was an Opus Dei funnel. To think she and that man are saints make me ill. Sorry. I know we're not supposed to rail on.....

[Jojen]

I've been rethinking Stannis lately too, and have often wondered what would he do if he wasn't such a slave to duty. He really seems to have a love/hate relationship with it. He uses it as justification for his actions, but he's also bitter that Robert was a dutiful--if not loving--brother, and Ned was a dutiful--if not exactly warm towards the Stan-Man--lieutenant in Robert's service. Maybe he recognizes that there are limits to doing one's duty?

How much of what he does has to do with not having a male heir? I think this has a great deal of impact on his outlook. Everyone wants to leave behind a legacy, no matter how small, but Stannis doesn't have anyone to really carry on after he's gone. So he hooks up with Mel (no, not that way) who promises the greatest legacy possible: savior of Westeros, and probably the world. How could he refuse? People don't like him, but Azor Ahai is a different story (actually, they may not like AA either, but would be more willing to support him than they would support plain ol' Stannis .

He doesn't need a son then. Everyone will remember him and in one way or another will carry on his legacy after that, especially if you think of a king as a father, and his subjects as his children. I think if he actually had a son or sons, Mel's hold on him might not be quite so strong--or maybe it's the other way around? Stannis may turn out to really have the upper hand in that relationship. She may seem like she's pulling his strings, but I don't get the idea that he's the type to allow himself to be used, especially by a woman. There are limits to what he'll tolerate from her (he did deny her the sacrfice of Edric Storm), and I bet we'll see more of that in the future.

[Thomas Hetz]

I think it would be hilarious if Stan was the Prince That Was Promised and everything Dany saw in the House of the Undying was as a series of extremely coincidental hallucinations brought on by the shade-of-the-evening air freshener the Warlocks use.

[The Red Wolf]

Jojen you raise a point I hadn't thought of, Stannis has no male heirs. Nor has he seemed to make any attempt to remedy this. He has been the priciple proponent of Tommen's illegitimacy so in his eyes the Baratheon legacy will die with him. Depending on who he plans to marry Shireen to (a lesser lord may take the baratheon name, a greater one certainly would not) his only choice may be to legitimize one of Robert's bastards. His only other oprion would be to *shudder* sleep with his wife.

[Grumpygoat]

There are limits to what he'll tolerate from her (he did deny her the sacrfice of Edric Storm), and I bet we'll see more of that in the future.

He didn't deny her him, though. Davos did. First by pointing out that she should get results before sacrificing him. Then by pointing out that two kings wasn't three. Then finally snatching Edric out from under Stannis' nose before he could do anything to the boy.

Stannis didn't want to sacrifice the boy, as he was grasping for reasons not to...but the mere fact that he had to justify not doing it shows he was getting manipulated by Mel quite aptly. He needed Davos to rein him back in.

As it is right now, Stannis is starting to mirror the story of the Night King. Meaning his path's bound to get darker, not lighter.

And Stannis is the sort to get manipulated: he's the sort who wants results. That's why he tolerates Mel. She gets things done. It's why he needs to justify doing the right thing to himself.

[Devil Hanzo]

If dany comes along....how much of an influence will Mel have over stannis in bending knee or not?

[Jojen]

You're right, Grumpygoat. Davos did act as an effective counterbalance and much-needed voice of reason against Mel. Too bad Stannis doesn't have him to kick around anymore (although I'm not convinced he's really dead).

Remember, though, what everyone seems to say about Stannis: he's brittle, like iron, and will break before he bends. Having Davos around prevented him from reaching that breaking point. I wouldn't want to be Mel when he finally breaks, especially if she's the one responsible.

Anyway, back to the point of my earlier post, that Stannis is motivated more by his lack of a male heir than his suspect dedication to duty. He wants to be the Baratheon that succeeded where Robert and Renly failed. True, he never gave Renly a chance to succeed (there goes his duty to family), and he didn't really seem to try all that much to help Robert succeed. I mean, what was he doing all this time while Robert was king? Well, he was on the small council as Master of Ships, and he did appear to be more truly devoted to duty back then, but it seems once Robert was gone, all bets were off.

Again, he wants to be the Baratheon that succeed where everyone else failed. That includes the Targaryens (nevermind that there is some Targ blood in him). When Dany comes along, he'll do everything in his power to prove that she isn't needed, that the Targs had their chance and he--not them--is the true savior of Westeros, whether or not he really believes in the whole Azor Ahai thing. Forget duty, it's a sham.

[Dornishman]

I'm not so flippant about it. But I think the point being made was that a lot of the 'luck' around Dany has been due to the actions of others. Not all, certainly.

- but she didn't pick her husband, he was chosen because he lead an army

- she didn't get the dragon eggs herself, they were a gift

- the whole Drogo / baby death thing was due to a major mistake on her part

- that mistake lead her to work out what needed to be done to hatch the dragons - which she did do herself of course - but Mizi Murr whatever told her the information

and then other stuff. She never intended to pay the agreed price for the Unsullied. Good tricksy plan, sure, but I don't admire the actions etc.

She has made a lot of mistakes, but few of them other than the deaths of Drogo and Rhaego have affected her personally. Other people seem to bear the brunt of her errors.

Well, lets see...

She made a mistake with demanding that the Maegi should use blood magic to heal Drogo. But then again, Dany did right in consulting her - had Drogo actually LISTENED to the Maegis advice, he would have survived as a whole. But as it was, Dany managed to listen to the Maegi and understand, and thus woke the dragons. That was not just by coincidence, it was by Dany learning from the Maegis words - and how many people would have really done so?

And then the voyage of her mini-khalasar through the Red Dunes. She managed to hold it together, despite it consisting of the too old and the too young. Sure, that was not due to some unique genius of her, it was a group effort. But nonetheless, she was the leader of that group, so its only fair if she gets credit for that.

She did just fine in Quarth, too. Again, maybe not genius, but then again she is no Mary Sue but a realistic character, so meh. She did allright, in any case, listening to all sides, but making comittments to none. As a ruler should.

And then the episode with the Unsullied. What the flying F*CK can anybdoy say against that? Now that WAS an excellent action! And her siege of Yunkai, too, while were at it. And her decision to remain and rule Meereen shows that she also has a sense of responsibility.

Really, some people and their blind Dany hate...

[Jon Targaryen]

And then the episode with the Unsullied. What the flying F*CK can anybdoy say against that? Now that WAS an excellent action!

As I recall, I had some moral problems with that action. But it was very effective and I do like Dany.

[Dornishman]

Well, our swedish children book character seems to have the same problems, but... I just wonder... Moral problems with betraying slaver lords?