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Mafia Game 78 - Tales of the Malazan Book of the Fallen

House Targaryen

By House Targaryen,
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House Pommingham Commoner

House Pommingham

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(Fyi, on mobile).

Is it me or is Tehol subtly defending Gruntle? She has had numerous long-winded thoughts about everyone this game except Grubtle??? The post where she calls him a blindspot feels off to me. And then she makes a stab towards Fids as a likely Gruntle partner shortly thereafter.

Plus her posts on Toc this morning smelled a bit of making sure the suspect pool was as large as possible, and very much distracted from our searching out unSandy leads. And more than once she tried to say that we were wasting time on unSandy and that we should focus our efforts in other directions.

I get a very bad vibe that she's been pushing us away from this route all along. People keep asking where the "push back" is when our Day 2 and 3 lynch trains were growing. Today we found our push back.

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House Dalt Commoner

House Dalt

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(Fyi, on mobile).

Is it me or is Tehol subtly defending Gruntle? She has had numerous long-winded thoughts about everyone this game except Grubtle??? The post where she calls him a blindspot feels off to me. And then she makes a stab towards Fids as a likely Gruntle partner shortly thereafter.

Plus her posts on Toc this morning smelled a bit of making sure the suspect pool was as large as possible, and very much distracted from our searching out unSandy leads. And more than once she tried to say that we were wasting time on unSandy and that we should focus our efforts in other directions.

I get a very bad vibe that she's been pushing us away from this route all along. People keep asking where the "push back" is when our Day 2 and 3 lynch trains were growing. Today we found our push back.

It's confirmation bias because you believe down to your core that Gruntle = Sandy and that Toc cannot possibly be a FM role. I'm not defending him, I just haven't truly looked at him because I've had him on my innocent list all game. But I'll lynch him without any issues because I feel that 2 out of 3 (Toc, Fiddler, Gruntle) are FM since I believe Silchas reaction wasn't FM, I don't think you, Yedan or QB are guilty and I'm innocent. Only leaves those 3 left.

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House Frey Commoner

House Frey

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So new vote count (with Yedan's switch):

5 votes are needed for a conviction or 4 to go to night.

3 votes for Gruntle (Silchas Ruin, Onos Toolan, Yedan Derryg)

2 votes for Toc the Younger (Fiddler, Tehol Beddict)

1 votes for Fiddler (Toc the Younger)

2 players have not voted: Gruntle, Quick Ben.

The good news is those three players are where I think the FM lie (although I'm still uneasy about Silchas). The bad news is that I'm not sure which two they are.

So I would be willing to vote for Toc. Obviously Gruntle would to save himself. But who's the fifth vote? Silchas and Onos both seem to think he's innocent. Should I make a last-ditch effort to explain why I suspect Toc, or just scrap him and leave the reread for tomorrow? Is there anyone who'd even be swayed by a Toc case?

How many people would vote for Fiddler? Tehol, probably me and Gruntle. Because Fiddler is objectively scummier than Gruntle--but Fiddler is also a weaker player than Gruntle.

I want to at least give Gruntle some time to get back to the thread to defend himself. I feel bad for springing a last-minute case on him.

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House Velaryon Commoner

House Velaryon

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Firstly, it's his reaction to Yedem's claim and resulting clusterfuck. My kneejerk reaction to the claim (before I really thought it through) was also, "Eh, it sounds fake," so I see where he was coming from. But in retrospect, I can see an FM taking that path to discredit a mislynch option's claim. I actually see where Yedem's coming from about this post:

BUT my reaction is obviously going to be more visceral. This was well before 'lol fake' theory so from my point of view it pretty much meant I was scum, so he couldn't be telling the truth. I mean the fact you didn't initially believe it either...well, yeah. Also he claimed healer *after* the suidice bomber? it looked like an effort to save himself on first glance, just with the way it claimed, it didn't feel like a healer claim. i dunno.

But also, basically, when everyone was having epiphanies and the whole thing with Sandalath came across, Gruntle seemed to be the slowest on the uptake. He seemed to be the most resistant against the theory that Sandalath was a puppet, and kept pushing the Yedem/Onos scumteam hypothesis even when everyone else was trying to put the pieces together. I could see that as an FM trying to distract from the fact that people are catching on to the mechanics behind his ace in the hole.

THIS IS ASSUMING YOUR THEORY IS RIGHT. I'm still not sure it is, in fact I thought it was ridiculous the first time I heard it. How can you *not* understand that? This is basically casting my position in the worst possible light possible. You're looking at me as the FM here and why my reaction is scummy as opposed to what if I am an FM. I didn't consider the role at all likely it looks like a stupid theory.

Was this ironic?

Completely. Also subtly pointing out my lack of being British.

It felt a bit like he was buddying up to Onos here. And finally, this post set my skin crawling:

I was appreciating his work ethic. If that's buddying up then I guess that's what I did!

Basically, the whole "how can I change it?" thing felt manipulative. I hadn't even made a case on him at the time. It felt as though he was appealing to my emotions, and trying to get me to articulate my objections with him just so he could discredit them.

Well? yeah? I don't want to be lynched, what the hell is wrong with that? I'm trying to fucking understand WHY you think I'm scum and I really don't. It's not that I object to lack of cases, that'd be hypocritical, if you said 'gut read' then whatever, but all the things you're coming up with are a) out of my control or B) I don't understand your POV.

See, I'd expect the opposite reaction. If someone you weren't sure was innocent said something like that, you'd want to poke them because it might be a half-hearted attempt to smear you.

Except ...what? No what? You'd expect me to be more likely to respond to someone I think is scum? That's...not true at all. I'm more likely to try and annoy them.

I don't even know what you mean by this. Not need to address what? Process of elimination?

No i meant I thought we'd have lynched scum by now at it'd be good game.

But my point is that I'm no longer sure you're innocent. I know you can fool me as scum. So I need to start taking a hard look at your play.

Are you giving me an honest re-read though? or are you going in with the mindset wow I wonder if Gruntle has done scummy things, let's see!

And yeah, I'd clear you. look at am I clearing you for valid reasons? actually that's fucking pointless as I'd do THAT as scum too. I don't know, sorry I think you're innocent I guess??? see how fucking stupid that is.

Okay, what? Why do you need to break down a post basically saying, "I'm no longer confident that Gruntle is innocent" point by point, just to say how ridiculous you think my paranoia is?

This really really bothers me.

Let me ask YOU something. How would you have interacted with me were you scum? Would you have screamed to the heavens that I was innocent? Would you have worked to undermine my credibility?

I'd treat you identically, I think. Actually I'd probably not have said I'd sheep you. I might try and undermine your confidence somewhat too, since I know you're not particularly confident in your reads, making you doubt yourself wouldn't be very hard, but I'm not sure, that's kinda low, in terms of on an out of game level and maybe not feel something I'd feel comfortable doing to you.

I broke down your case because I was annoyed I guess. I dunno.

Here, look. WHY is Daseem lynched without a claim if I'm scum? Ignoring me? I was online the whole time, if I was going to Bus I'd fucking bus, or not vote daseem at all. The only reason I've *ever* bussed is to set myself up to ride to endgame, I guess I just think, if I was scum here, I'd have done better than that and made myself look fucking awesome. This is probably a bit arrogant, but whatever, I'm sure I deserve it.

this whole thing just feels like an exercise in frustration. i really don't want to vote fiddler. i don't know who i want to vote, actually.

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House Velaryon Commoner

House Velaryon

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also most of this is 'hurr durr gruntle is sandalath' which is fucking wrong and annoying. the fact i can see *why* people think it makes it even worse, as yes it's conceivable it could be me, yes i could very easily slip back into my typing style. it just seems the main reason I'm getting votes, (anyone who says different is a liar) and it's well okay whatever.

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House Velaryon Commoner

House Velaryon

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and yes quick ben! I'm annoyed and yes quick ben I can *fake* annoyance really well as scum too! Wheeeeee. I can mostly match my meta to a fucking t. but my interactions with daseem aren't scum me, never ever and i can't do any more than point that out.

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House Velaryon Commoner

House Velaryon

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I said somewhat. It makes sense. I'm rereading you now though. It's kind of hard though because you keep saying that you play the same as innocent or guilty.

shrug, i'm sure others would disagree, my scum record is good for a reason though.

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House Velaryon Commoner

House Velaryon

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So who's guilty then?

If Fiddler and you are innocent, you're left with Toc, me and Silchas. Who do you think are the FM?

or yedan and onos ._.

i don't actually know. i think onos brings up a good point that you've *largely* ignored me all game, but I can't see any scum motive to not comment on one particular player who's not even confirmed innocent, it just seems a weird, I mean I guess the reverse is kinda true, too, i don't know.

I don't think you and toc are scum together...so what I'm voting silchias on the basis the fucking dead finder isn't a finder? but I don't think silchias brings it up as scum either. i really hate scumhunting without meta. it's where i get most of my gut vibes from. meh whatever i'm just being whiny.

i'd probably vote toc, I guess. but if he's FM this whole SANDALATH thing is most likely crap as I don't see scum having the posibillity of having 5 votes any given game day (assuming a non fm lynch day 1)

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House Pommingham Commoner

House Pommingham

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Gruntle, who do you think could imitate your posting style? Or do you think Sandy was innocent the whole time and this is all a tragic coincidence? It seems to me your defense needs to be one or the other and not the emotional BS you are feeding QB because you know it works on her.

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House Dalt Commoner

House Dalt

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or yedan and onos ._.

i don't actually know. i think onos brings up a good point that you've *largely* ignored me all game, but I can't see any scum motive to not comment on one particular player who's not even confirmed innocent, it just seems a weird, I mean I guess the reverse is kinda true, too, i don't know.

I don't think you and toc are scum together...so what I'm voting silchias on the basis the fucking dead finder isn't a finder? but I don't think silchias brings it up as scum either. i really hate scumhunting without meta. it's where i get most of my gut vibes from. meh whatever i'm just being whiny.

i'd probably vote toc, I guess. but if he's FM this whole SANDALATH thing is most likely crap as I don't see scum having the posibillity of having 5 votes any given game day (assuming a non fm lynch day 1)

Who is Toc partnered with?

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