Tyrion & Tywin

[Ned'sHead]

Discussion of the final Tyrion chapter in ASoS...

Tyrion's crossbow vengeance was possibly the most bad ass thing I've ever read. I knew he was angry when Jaime revealed, but I didn't expect him to use Varys' "little bird" passageways to assassinate Tywin!

I don't really have any intelligent opinions to express about the chapter - I just needed to vent some excitement! I read it in bed last night and woke up wondering if I had actually read it or if I dreamed it, because it was almost too awesome.

I do have to say that one of the coolest things about being a new reader, brought onboard by the show, is that I get to picture Peter Dinklage (minus a nose of course) doing all this.

[Lucreel]

I didn't read any of what you posted, because the entire thing is within a spoiler block. Can I please request that you, without actually putting any spoilers, add a sentence or two before the spoiler block, to give the reader some sense of what point in the book the content occurs? I have no idea whether what you are discussing is past a point I've already ready, or not. I need some way to figure out if it's 'safe' for me to read your spoiler.

[Ned'sHead]

Wow. That makes almost too much sense. Intro text added.

[tytos]

I hated the fact that he lied to Jamie though.

[Slychd]

I hated the fact that he lied to Jamie though.

I agree, I hated that he lied to Jaime, but I'm not sure why. Jaime was the only relative (other than the dead uncle) who ever treated Tyrion with kindness. Maybe if Jaime thinks Tyrion did it, he won't try to find out more about who really did it, but that web is very well constructed and one of my favorite plot points. I just finished A Storm of Swords earlier and started A Feast for Crows, so I don't know what happens.

[rayvio]

treated him with kindness, yes. but

Jaime still tricked Tyrion, a trick that even years later still hurts Tyrion to his core and so that felt like a huge betrayal from the one family member he trusted

though I'm not sure why he wasn't already pissed at Jaime when he thought that Jaime had tricked him into falling for a prostitute, which for somebody as romantic as Tyrion seems to have been back then (and to some degree still is, though somewhat jaded and cynical now) should have been a hell of a bad way to lose your virginity

[Lucreel]

treated him with kindness, yes. but

Jaime still tricked Tyrion, a trick that even years later still hurts Tyrion to his core and so that felt like a huge betrayal from the one family member he trusted

though I'm not sure why he wasn't already pissed at Jaime when he thought that Jaime had tricked him into falling for a prostitute, which for somebody as romantic as Tyrion seems to have been back then (and to some degree still is, though somewhat jaded and cynical now) should have been a hell of a bad way to lose your virginity

You know, I always suspected she really was a crofter's daughter, and that Tywin and Jaime lied to Tyrion. I mean, Tywin's the sort of man who, it is clear, would not have any of his high-born children marrying smallfolk. It's humiliating enough to him that he had a dwarf son, but then to have the dwarf marry a commoner's daughter - just too much for his pride.

Well, I guess the Dornish got their Justice served.

I don't like Tyrion strangling Shae though. Shae is a piece, not a player. I'm 100% certain she had no choice but to provide false testimony against him, or else she'd be dead. It's unjust of Tyrion to hate and kill her for something which is Cersei's doing. I also have this suspicion that Shae was really Tysha, going by a new name. Guess we'll see. . .

[rayvio]

I think Shae

was too young to be Tysha, besides Tyrion would surely recognise her. granted people change over time but not usually to such an extent that you could spend so much time with them and not suspect they were the same person

as for Shae's fate... I don't think she was quite so innocent. at first I thought maybe she was the clichéd whore who fell in love but it become increasingly apparent that it wasn't the case. one of the most telling signs being her reaction to his marriage with Sansa. to have such a non-reaction she'd either have to be the single most understanding person in the entire universe or not care about him romantically at all

I also had suspicions that she was sleeping with the singer and in league with him to blackmail Tyrion, planning to take him for everything he owns before leaving him. keep in mind also that she not only used very personal information ("my giant Lannister") against him but he also found her in his fathers bed and when she thought it was Tywin approaching she didn't exactly seem unwilling (not to mention she was alone in the room with a secret passage she knew about so could have escaped had she wanted to)

so Shae, in my opinion, was far, far from an innocent victim. killing her may have been a tad extreme but leaving a living witness would've been a rather bad idea besides

as for Tysha

now we know she wasn't really a whore something else doesn't add up. just as Shae points out in the TV version (though it's not addressed at all in the books) a girl escaping rape does NOT jump into bed with anyone that quickly or easily

[Lady Caek]

To be honest, I think Shae deserved what she got. He loved her, he trusted her and in the end she betrayed him like everyone else he has ever loved. She could have thought of something different when accusing Tyrion of murder, she could have left out those personal details, but in the end she didn't and thought that she was going to reep some sort of benefit from this. Ceresi obviously had it in her head that she was going to get riches from doing what she wanted.

Either way, in the end she showed her true colors when he found her in her fathers bed.

[tytos]

Yeah Shae's death was totally deserved. I raged when she revealed his secrets in court. Anyways, I have a theory: what if Tysha is one of Dany's handmaids? The one who can speak westerosi(I think? I know she told a story about how she was trained as a whore and all but what if she's lying?). Just a theory I guess.

[rayvio]

that particular handmaid died in the second book though, and she would have been too young

[Slychd]

treated him with kindness, yes. but

Jaime still tricked Tyrion, a trick that even years later still hurts Tyrion to his core and so that felt like a huge betrayal from the one family member he trusted

though I'm not sure why he wasn't already pissed at Jaime when he thought that Jaime had tricked him into falling for a prostitute, which for somebody as romantic as Tyrion seems to have been back then (and to some degree still is, though somewhat jaded and cynical now) should have been a hell of a bad way to lose your virginity

I see what you are saying, I just can't reconcile it lol, if that makes any sense. I think if I were Tyrion, I would cling onto one of the few who ever treated me nicely. (That's very much a testament to GRRM's characterization)

[Hear Me Roar!]

I see what you are saying, I just can't reconcile it lol, if that makes any sense. I think if I were Tyrion, I would cling onto one of the few who ever treated me nicely. (That's very much a testament to GRRM's characterization)

Hmm, you took that part much differently than I did.

Tyrion is so enraged by the revelation that he lies saying he poisoned Joffrey simply out of spite for Jaime at that very instant. It was a spur of the moment thing brought on by his sudden anger. He even partially regrets it saying part of him wanted to stop Jaime and tell him he wasn't telling the truth, but the other part of him was furious still and wanted to see Jaime squirm.

Either way, I love that scene. How he tells Jaime and Jaime just ... walks off, clearly hurting.

[lezboyd]

This post is kind of a reply to everyone and no-one in particular.

I think what Tyrion did was a befitting reply to what was done to him, except lying to Jaime of course. Shae was the only one whom he expected would not humiliate him, and she ended up humiliating him the most, in front of the entire court. I was enraged myself when mentioned the part about 'my giant of Lannister'. That was what got the whole court laughing and she was stupid enough to repeat that when Tyrion finds her in his father's bed. There was never any love lost between father and son, and finding her in his father's bed when he came with the intention to confront his father also did not work in her favor. Ever since book 2, Tyrion hopes against his instincts that Shea does not love him only for his money. Strangling Shae, for me symbolized the end of this hope for Tyrion, the same way murdering his father symbolized the end of his identity as a Lannister.

This chapter signals the emergence of an entirely different Tyrion, because he has learned that no matter what he did for his family and the people of Westeros, he will always be hated and humiliated. The final chapter signifies the end of his previous identity.

I guess reading AFfC will confirm/falsify this theory.

[areowin]

I was suprised he went up to kill Shae and his Tywin. I thought his little butt would have been long gone with Varys. And why does Varys play so many sides??

[Mattyp]

The reason I didn't like

Tyrion killing Shae wasn't because she didn't deserve it, but because it was so out of character for Tyrion. He had loved her, and I don't see Tyrion as a 'vengeful' lover sort, he is supposed to be better than that. I was very surprised when he killed Tywin though, although the man had it coming, especially after The Red Wedding.

.

I wonder where Tyrion will go from here?

ETA. Tyrion has

made Cersei's life a lot easier by disposing of Tywin. I think that he may come to regret that one day. Cersei is now free to taint Tommen like she did Joffrey.

[Lucreel]

. . . At first I thought maybe she was the clichéd whore who fell in love but it become increasingly apparent that it wasn't the case. one of the most telling signs being her reaction to his marriage with Sansa. to have such a non-reaction she'd either have to be the single most understanding person in the entire universe or not care about him romantically at all.

Or, perhaps, she just plays her cards very close to her vest - that is, I suppose as a whore, she is well practiced at keeping her true feelings deeply submerged, and not showing them in her speech, on her face or in her body language.

It's hard to say one way or another. . . I sometimes wonder if she had gotten her hopes up that Tyrion would be her 'white knight', who would declare his love for her before god and man, to hell with society. But he never did that. Perhaps over time, his refusal to 'claim' her (which, of course was him trying to protect her, but she may just not have really believed him about that), and then marrying Sansa, just made her come to despise him - he wanted her to love him, not as a whore, but as a lady. . . except he kept treating her as his whore.

Or, perhaps he she did come to love him, but then he married Sansa, and that just by itself stung too much.

Or, as I originally posited, I still think it's quite possible that she just played the part she had to, in order to avoid whatever fate that Cersei and/or Tywin had in mind for her. Yes, I'm sure she was promised some sort of 'favors' in exchange for her testimony, but I also suspect she was likewise promised certain punishment if she should refuse.

I just can't find it in me to truly condemn her - I think the nature of her existence and circumstance is too . . . ambiguous, for lack of a better word, to really say she acted particularly badly.

[Don't_call_me_Ser]

I just have issue with the idea Tyrion is capable physically of strangling anyone? His hands' wouldn't be up to the task surely? plus someone would fight very hard against it! pullign a trigger, simple, strangling.... i don't see it?!

[Lucreel]

I just have issue with the idea Tyrion is capable physically of strangling anyone? His hands' wouldn't be up to the task surely? plus someone would fight very hard against it! pullign a trigger, simple, strangling.... i don't see it?!

The way it was described, Shae was wearing the gold chain of the Hand about her throat. IIRC, it was only a little bit loose to begin with (think of a choker necklace, but a little bit looser). Tyrion grabbed the necklace and twisted it. You twist a rope or chain like that, and even a fairly weak person can strangle someone. I seriously don't think there would be a physical problem with him being able to choke her by twisting the chain.

I too thought that she should have fought a bit more against it - I agree that she wouldn't die immediately from strangulation and would fight to try to un-strangle herself. Which fighting should have alerted Tywin or the guards.