[ADwD Spoilers] Young Griff 2

[nikkodemus]

They do? Do you have a quote for that? I must have missed it.

They mention that with the blue hair his eyes look blue. At least twice.

Except that Stannis is the only blue-eyed king who also has a red sword and also figuratively casts no shadow. I really don't see how this vision could refer to anyone else at this point.

Neither do I, first time I read it, I was 100% sure it was Stannis. Now, given a letter saying that Stannis is dead, doesn't the likelihood drop just a little bit? Unless you're 100% sure the letter is a fake. I'm down to about 70%. Can't remember much of the letter beside 'Bastard', but it wasn't too extremely unlikely. And I can see GRRM killing a major character off-screen (off-page?) without much ado. Especially one mired in a snowstorm without food for days. It's not totally impossible.

And a really nifty plot twist. The problem is that it comes off more cliffhanger-ish than plot twist.

But martin peppers this book with endings only cliffhanger-ish. One or two have got to count for something or no one takes a cliffhanger seriously ever again.

His "anyone can die" kinda became "nobody's in any real danger. WE have Respawn now. All underdogs are safe."

Can Davos, Tyrion or Dany die? Can Stannis die in a snowstorm, or does he need dragon fire?

[Faint]

Hizdahr's nowhere near a ship. I'm buying Victarion as the corpse, though. Hrm..

I had always assumed as much until Daenerys actually got married. She is the child of 3, not the child of 4. She can't marry 4 times. The line does say "bride of fire."

As for the ship, I think that scene from the prophecy might simply be Hizdahr's death scene. Exiled from Meereen and dying of greyscale.

[Claireducky]

I had always assumed as much until Daenerys actually got married. She is the child of 3, not the child of 4. She can't marry 4 times. The line does say "bride of fire."

As for the ship, I think that scene from the prophecy might simply be Hizdahr's death scene. Exiled from Meereen and dying of greyscale.

I always thought child of 3 referred to her ancestry through both Aegon and Visenya and Aegon and Rhaenys.

I don't see any reason why she can't marry more than 3 times, just that there are 3 things that will be prophetic in each couplet. After all, she's already bedded 3 people (Drogo, Daario and Hizdahr), and I don't think any of us believe she will live the rest of her life without bedding someone else.

[Mr Crannogman]

If Aegon is the mummer's dragon, could he be the allegedly stillborn child of Ashara Dayne? Purple eyes, age would seem about right. But then why did Illyrio act so strangely when Aegon leaves him? he seemed depressed.

[Faint]

I always thought child of 3 referred to her ancestry through both Aegon and Visenya and Aegon and Rhaenys.

I don't see any reason why she can't marry more than 3 times, just that there are 3 things that will be prophetic in each couplet. After all, she's already bedded 3 people (Drogo, Daario and Hizdahr), and I don't think any of us believe she will live the rest of her life without bedding someone else.

The whole theme of the prophecy is that things come in three for her. It would be odd if the prophecy referred to her as "bride of fire" except, you know, when you got married the second time -- we won't count that.

It has nothing to do with how many people she has slept with. That's irrelevant. She can sleep with Daario all she wants, or Victarion for that matter, or even Tyrion, but she will only marry three times and she has already married twice.

If Aegon is the mummer's dragon, could he be the allegedly stillborn child of Ashara Dayne? Purple eyes, age would seem about right. But then why did Illyrio act so strangely when Aegon leaves him? he seemed depressed.

Many suspect, myself included, that "Aegon" is actually Illyrio's son with Sera, his second wife. Read the descriptions of the statutes in Illyrio's manse which are of him when he was younger and the description of Sera, then compare to "Aegon."

[Dragonfish]

They mention that with the blue hair his eyes look blue. At least twice.

I looked it up, and Tyrion does say at one point that his blue hair makes his eyes look almost blue. However, you'd think the vision in the House of the Undying would have included something as distinctive as blue hair, if it indeed referred to Aegon.

Also, the fact remains that Aegon and Euron don't have red swords, and don't have any connection to shadows, while Stannis does.

Neither do I, first time I read it, I was 100% sure it was Stannis. Now, given a letter saying that Stannis is dead, doesn't the likelihood drop just a little bit?

No, for two reasons:

1. The letter could be fake. In fact, I think that's the most likely scenario.

2. Prophecies have been subverted before. Dany's son was supposed to be the Stallion Who Mounts The World, until he died. Griff and Aegon (if he's the mummer's dragon) were supposed to be headed toward Dany, until they changed their mind and went to Westeros instead. If Stannis turns out to be dead, then this could be considered a subversion of the prophecy, rather than evidence that the prophecy never referred to him in the first place. (I'm almost certain he's still alive, though.)

[nikkodemus]

Many suspect, myself included, that "Aegon" is actually Illyrio's son with Sera, his second wife.

Somehow, the boredom was so high at this point that my eyes just glazed over every sentimental thing Illyrio had to say. Why would Illyrio set his son up to get eaten/burnt to death by a dragon? It only works if he or his whore wife is a Targs. There are known Targs over the Narrow Sea, but still...

Illyrio's just bidding his time, getting his son raised to be king in secret, while publicly fostering Dany and Vis, people in line for the throne? Of course, He's going to have to prove it.

Remember Aerys with "Don't burn"?

What's Illyrio's/Varys' thinking on that? They know that Dany has real fire-breathing dragons. Has he chucked his son into a fire to ensure his dragon blood is strong enough? Or is that why he's so allegedly upset, because he's expecting any day now to expect his beloved to be burnt to death?

Does this ring a little too close to "A Sword of Truth" to anybody else? All the convenient bastard sons popping up? Jon, Tyrion apparently, Illyrio Jr.? Eddard has a real bastard now, too. Or Brandon. Ramsey's officially not a bastard any more but I'm still counting him. Tommen and Myrcella - Bastard squared.

How many stand-in characters can we get? I mean no DNA testing, no birth certificates, but come on. Is it a part of the culture to have people pretending to be other people, because apparently that's the number one solution to any problem in ASOIAF now. It's stale.

[Lord Morvegil]

Its simple. GRRM just thought of doing this a book or two later.

[Faint]

@nikkodemus

Here's the thing:

First off, there is no way either Illyrio or Varys could have foreseen that Daenerys would actually birth three live dragons. So the dragons never figured into their calculations, at least initially, about putting "Aegon" on the throne.

Secondly, while Illyrio and Varys are quite informed about current events, it's not at all clear whether they are very informed about dragon lore. If they were, you would think they would not be sending "Aegon" to go meet Daenerys and her babies. The hair and eye color might fake out Cersei Lannister and Mace Tyrell, or even Daenerys Targaryen for that matter, but Drogon will see right through it.

Incidentally, I imagine the whole wrinkle about dragons recognizing those with Targaryen blood was invented so "Aegon" could be found out as a fraud and so that Jon Snow could be confirmed as the son of R + L.

[Raventhal]

The whole theme of the prophecy is that things come in three for her. It would be odd if the prophecy referred to her as "bride of fire" except, you know, when you got married the second time -- we won't count that.

It has nothing to do with how many people she has slept with. That's irrelevant. She can sleep with Daario all she wants, or Victarion for that matter, or even Tyrion, but she will only marry three times and she has already married twice.

Many suspect, myself included, that "Aegon" is actually Illyrio's son with Sera, his second wife. Read the descriptions of the statutes in Illyrio's manse which are of him when he was younger and the description of Sera, then compare to "Aegon."

But what color eyes does Illyrio have? Purple eyes seem to be semi-dominate gene in SOIAF with seeming 50/50 chance of passing along. His wife has blue eyes and that would mean that Illyrio would have to have purple eyes.

In real life Dark colors are dominate generally when it comes to skin/eyes/hair. To have non-dark colored eyes you must have either one of a few things happen. Both have light eyes or one have light eyes and the other has recessive light eye gene or rarely both have recessive gene and it appears or a form of albinoism. I will assume in this world purple eyes are dominate gene or at least somewhat and the silver hair or it wouldn't be a 50/50 chance.

[Flea Bottom's Up!]

@nikkodemus

Incidentally, I imagine the whole wrinkle about dragons recognizing those with Targaryen blood was invented so "Aegon" could be found out as a fraud and so that Jon Snow could be confirmed as the son of R + L.

50/50. It could also have been introduced to prove that Aegon was really Aegon.

I dunno. I kind of like the idea of a good, decent, prepared to rule, Aegon appearing in a book where Dany realizes that she might not have the ruler 'it'.

[Raventhal]

@nikkodemus

Here's the thing:

First off, there is no way either Illyrio or Varys could have foreseen that Daenerys would actually birth three live dragons. So the dragons never figured into their calculations, at least initially, about putting "Aegon" on the throne.

Secondly, while Illyrio and Varys are quite informed about current events, it's not at all clear whether they are very informed about dragon lore. If they were, you would think they would not be sending "Aegon" to go meet Daenerys and her babies. The hair and eye color might fake out Cersei Lannister and Mace Tyrell, or even Daenerys Targaryen for that matter, but Drogon will see right through it.

Incidentally, I imagine the whole wrinkle about dragons recognizing those with Targaryen blood was invented so "Aegon" could be found out as a fraud and so that Jon Snow could be confirmed as the son of R + L.

Would the dragons respond to Stannis who is what 25 percent Targ? It certainly didn't help Quenton though his is likely more poluted. Shouldn't a lot of Essos who have Valryian ancestors respond to the dragons as well.

EDIT: Not to mention that even Drogon tried to burn Dany.

[nikkodemus]

@sualk - they know she's queen of Meereen but don't know she has three dragons? Varys at least is generally portrayed as intelligent and he's spent a good while with Mad King. He knows the common enough knowledge to know that Targs don't burn, (except by wildfire). I don't see Illyrio being a Targ, or the whore wife, and I don't see them not thinking that any claimant is going to come in contact with some dragonfire.

1. The letter could be fake. In fact, I think that's the most likely scenario.

2. Prophecies have been subverted before. Dany's son was supposed to be the Stallion Who Mounts The World, until he died. Griff and Aegon (if he's the mummer's dragon) were supposed to be headed toward Dany, until they changed their mind and went to Westeros instead. If Stannis turns out to be dead, then this could be considered a subversion of the prophecy, rather than evidence that the prophecy never referred to him in the first place. (I'm almost certain he's still alive, though.)

Fully agree with point one, but not so fully that I'll put my head on the chopping block for it. It could be fake.

I'm not going to check the grammar on what tense of verb 'could' is but 'could' implies 'could not'. GRRM end the arc with a letter saying his ass is dead. I'm taking it with a lot of salt, but there's like a 10%, 1%, 0.0001 percent that yeah, the dude's dead, right?

My entire point is about how vague prophecies are, and obviously GRRM's playing with that. It can be misinterpreted by human error like Alys/ Arya and have horrible results like whatever happened at Summerhall. It can be clear as rice water diarrhoea like with the pale mare. It can have the whole Pygmalion/Galatea effect, or it can come to shit.

Apparently, people are taking the prophecy by the Undying Ones as set in stone bound to come true, (They did include the dead son with the rest of dead, or else the fiery stallion is some warlord yet to come, but not going back to that decaying horse.) But if Stannis is dead, just if, instead of casting the prophecy to the dustbin, can it not be possible for some other person with blue eyes to get a hold of Stannis's sword and declare himself king? Are blue eyes rare? Are self-proclaimed kings rare? The sword is rare, I'll give you that, but I don't think it'll turn to ash and blow away if Stannis dies.

All unlikely, but isn't it a good nifty plot trick if true? Doesn't it redeem the utter pointlessness of Stannis at the wall and dredging through snow moving each day closer to cannibalism?

There should probably be a Stannis or Dany prophecy thread, but as relates to YG, there's nothing in the Undying's Prophesy marking him out exclusively and putting him in the 'doomed' column.

Mummer's dragon, fine. Not really important. Dany kinda pissed on everything involved in that prophecy.

Cloth dragon, marked for a slaying? Maybe.

Just a maybe. Not set in stone, right?

We should probably do a poll or get a petition or something to let Martin not make YG a fake. He's already a introduced as a fake! What, he's going to be Young Illyrio instead of Young Griff? That's like ten steps backwards

.......And I just now get why people don't like the book and find the Aegon twist is contrived. It just hit me. Seriously. If you take it for granted that YG is a fake, the book really is shit... This and AFFC by default. :stunned:

:o

:(

Is there an emoticon for sheer horror? I can't find one with the appropriate expression.

This thread has given me a glimpse of true horror.

[Winterborn]

Interesting. I like this theory, if Aegon turns out to be fake.

Question: If Aegon is fake, who would be in a position to reveal this? Seems to me like only Varys would know, and perhaps Illyrio, and those two are not going to tell a soul.

The dragon that eats him. ;_;

[nikkodemus]

The dragon that eats him. ;_;

Big lol.

If he's not Rhaegar's son, he still has to be a pure enough Targ. Not that he's going out of his way to prove himself, but Illyrio/Varys have to at least consider the possibility that at sometime during YG's reign, he's going to come in contact with some heat. Unless they have some secret fire-proof socery/dragon-slaying outfit/Maester Dragon slayer lurking in the wings.

Can somebody who's convinced that YG is not Rhaegar's son,

what exactly happened to Rhaegar's son,

why Martin's introducing doubt via the unrelated and ignorant Selmy's POV,

Why he's introducing Selmy as a POV at this stage if not to introduce the conflict that he's sworn to Dany against the real king and thus is entering the "dishonour' zone. Pray, that it's not for more insight into Meereen politics.

And above all, what is the alternative interpretation for :

“Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”

“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was

speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings.

Is this in some other thread and long resolved after ACOK? Even if, there's a new take now that we have a guy actually saying he's Aegon. How is this not clear cut? How many sons can one man name Aegon? Why would he name John that? We deny that he's talking to Dany directly at that point, even though we know Targs have the prophetic power? Are we denying that it's Rhaegar? If prophecies are being called up to disprove, how are we ignoring this obvious "one more"? This seems the most relevant vision of all concerning Aegon, more clear cut than the cloth Dragon at least. Rhaegar actually tells Dany, "one more", meaning in addition to Aegon.

It ain't Aerys with baby Tyrion for one thing. and I can't fathom Rhaegar saying, "this is my new Aegon, cause well, the other one's going to get his head bashed in. It's a prophecy and all, so I'm not going to interfere with that. I'm just going to work around that. Aegon 2."

???

[Raventhal]

Targs weren't only one Valyrian family branch. There were other dragon riders. Dany's connection more than likely is due to her magic birthing them, them imprinting on her. Others might need a dragon binding horn.

[Jem]

Ashara Dayne (AKA Septa Lemore) took the real Baby Aegon into exile when she faked her death. Unfortunately, Baby Aegon died as an infant. Unwilling to admit the infant's death to the pro-Targ faction that was supporting them, Ashara and Jon Connington substituted the dead Baby Aegon with Ashara's son, the one that she conceived at Harrenhal by Rhaegar, as the two boys were near enough in age and colouring. So YG/Aegon is a Targ, but not a legitimate one.

[Faint]

But what color eyes does Illyrio have? Purple eyes seem to be semi-dominate gene in SOIAF with seeming 50/50 chance of passing along. His wife has blue eyes and that would mean that Illyrio would have to have purple eyes.In real life Dark colors are dominate generally when it comes to skin/eyes/hair. To have non-dark colored eyes you must have either one of a few things happen. Both have light eyes or one have light eyes and the other has recessive light eye gene or rarely both have recessive gene and it appears or a form of albinoism. I will assume in this world purple eyes are dominate gene or at least somewhat and the silver hair or it wouldn't be a 50/50 chance.

Check this description of "Aegon":

Like his sire, Young Griff had blue eyes, but where the father's eyes were pal, the son's were dark. By lamplight they turned black, and in the light of dusk they seemed purple.

Now, for a description of Sera:

Inside was a painted likeness of a woman with big blue eyes and pale golden hair streaked by silver.

In other words, "Aegon" doesn't even have purple eyes really.

50/50. It could also have been introduced to prove that Aegon was really Aegon.I dunno. I kind of like the idea of a good, decent, prepared to rule, Aegon appearing in a book where Dany realizes that she might not have the ruler 'it'.

I'm committed to the idea that "Aegon" is a fake and the mummer's dragon from Daenerys' vision. Having said that, if he were truly legitimate, then yes, the reaction of one of the dragons to him would be dispositive.

Would the dragons respond to Stannis who is what 25 percent Targ? It certainly didn't help Quenton though his is likely more poluted. Shouldn't a lot of Essos who have Valryian ancestors respond to the dragons as well.EDIT: Not to mention that even Drogon tried to burn Dany.

I suppose the dragons would react more positively to Stannis than the average person, but then again, he is many relations removed from pure Targaryen blood than Jon (assuming, of course, he's Rhaegar's son) and even more so when it comes to Daenerys.

@sualk - they know she's queen of Meereen but don't know she has three dragons? Varys at least is generally portrayed as intelligent and he's spent a good while with Mad King. He knows the common enough knowledge to know that Targs don't burn, (except by wildfire). I don't see Illyrio being a Targ, or the whore wife, and I don't see them not thinking that any claimant is going to come in contact with some dragonfire.

I was speaking to the time preceding the birth of the dragons, which is to say, I do not think either Varys or Illyrio were prepared for a scenario where Daenerys could actually disprove their lies with respect to Targaryen heritage. And no, I do not think it necessarily true that either would be so acquainted with knowledge of dragons to know intricate details of their nature. Varys, for one despises, magic -- or at least we are led to believe so -- and even if he didn't, why would dragons concern Varys and Illyrio up until the point Daenerys brought them back into the world? Before then, they were thought instinct. Reading about such matters was purely recreational for those fascinated about such matters (i.e., Tyrion).

[wolfbird]

Isn't it already established that Ashara Dayne's baby was a girl?

[Jem]

Isn't it already established that Ashara Dayne's baby was a girl?

According to Barristan Selmey, but I sincerely doubt he was in the birthing chamber with Ashara. Anything he knows is second-hand information at best.