Lapse Posted July 29, 2007 Share Posted July 29, 2007 I think it would be an interesting plot device if Xaro follows through on his "this means war" promise, but his ships arrive at the same time as the Iron Fleet and they all wipe each other out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 I think it would be an interesting plot device if Xaro follows through on his "this means war" promise, but his ships arrive at the same time as the Iron Fleet and they all wipe each other out. A very little chance for that. Xaro owns trade ships not warships and he is a merchant not warrior. So if he means war he would not attack Dany directly but will find other ways to harm her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Balerion Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Such as the Faceless men? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 Such as the Faceless men? Sorrowful men are more likely in the case but Xaro could find different means to make troubles. Support her enemies for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bittersteel+ Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 I agree that the pale mare may indeed represent one of the dothraki, though Dany fits the pale mare description better than any other Khal or khalessi I've heard of, with her silver hair and the silver she rides. But we shouldn't forget that the Dosh Khaleen are expecting Dany to return to Vaes Dothrak, which is the rightful place for all widowed khalessi. If the Dosh Khaleen learn from the Yunkish envoy that Dany lives, they may make "a decree" for the Khals to bring Dany back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 And the king has... a Hand. I'm being speculative, but could it be that the former hand of a king called Jon Connington is the one to be beware of? If he is parfumed of course... Reasons are plenty... Connington was already mentioned in the list once – there is no reason to confuse Dany even more by bringing him under two different names. Perfumed seneschal is somebody who indeed uses perfumes and who is in the Dany’s vicinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bittersteel+ Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 Connington was already mentioned in the list once – there is no reason to confuse Dany even more by bringing him under two different names. Perfumed seneschal is somebody who indeed uses perfumes and who is in the Dany’s vicinity. Well, I think the whole thing has nothing to do with being clear... The warning is damned unclear to start with. And it can be young Griff who was mentioned. He would play a more important role it the story. But that doesn't say that Connington is the Seneshal of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 Most probably it is “old†Grif and young Grif may be not Grif at all. No one mentioned that Jon Connington had a son or even was married and young Grif had to be at least 16 years old or more… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bittersteel+ Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 Most probably it is “old� Grif and young Grif may be not Grif at all. No one mentioned that Jon Connington had a son or even was married and young Grif had to be at least 16 years old or more… So you suggest that Young Griff is the not-killed-Aegon after all? It may be, but I do not like the idea. It's like a hocus-pocus with a white rabbit for me which I do not expect from a realistic book like SOIAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 So you suggest that Young Griff is the not-killed-Aegon after all? It may be, but I do not like the idea. It's like a hocus-pocus with a white rabbit for me which I do not expect from a realistic book like SOIAF. I only state that in the light of “Aegon alive†theory Young Grif so far is the most suspicious personage and by far the best candidate. Yet he may be fake as well as real Aegon. And I’m sure that in “Griffin and lion†griffin is old Grif aka Jon Connington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bittersteel+ Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 I only state that in the light of “Aegon alive� theory Young Grif so far is the most suspicious personage and by far the best candidate. Yet he may be fake as well as real Aegon. And I’m sure that in “Griffin and lion� griffin is old Grif aka Jon Connington. Look, if "Griff" is old Griff, then we have no description for young Griff alias Aegon (in your version). Do you think it's probable, that kraken, lion and so on are named, Old Griff is named, but the most important Young Griff coming with them is not mentioned? I would say if young Griff is Aegon then he is the most important of all menagerie... Why no name in the prophecy? The mummer's dragon is most likely a Bittersteel's descendent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 Who said that all persons of importance were named? Magical ways of foreseen future are inaccurate so it is quite possible that person whose true identity was hidden was overlooked. Besides you argument backfires. Old Grif is apparently Jon Connington and therefore is a person of great importance for Dany. How could it be that he is not mentioned particularly when Tyrion (lion) was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bittersteel+ Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 Who said that all persons of importance were named? Magical ways of foreseen future are inaccurate so it is quite possible that person whose true identity was hidden was overlooked. Besides you argument backfires. Old Grif is apparently Jon Connington and therefore is a person of great importance for Dany. How could it be that he is not mentioned particularly when Tyrion (lion) was? As for me, I believe the prophecy is a rather clear one, metaphorical, but decent in naming all the new players. And do not really like the idea that all the persons gathering around Dany are supposed to be of a really such a great importance... It would be somehow too much... As for the importance: In the talk between Tyrion and Illirio and then between Illirio and other sellswords, the topic is the Young Griff, not the old. I believe he is supposed to be a new dragon head and maybe a new husband for Dany, that's why he is really that important. Tyrion is clearly the new Hand if he survives the meeting (: Well, Jon Connongton may be a fine man and old friend of Raegar, but a little old for Dany and mostly a player of minor importance, when compared to the other two. Marvin is supposed to be Dany's Maester - very important. Kraken is named because he has the Iron fleet and can attack Dany or make an alliance with her. In both cases a very formidable figure and important. Pale mare - the same thing from the side of Dotraki (suposedly) - very important. Quentin is Young Griff number Two, and the Mummer's dragon - well, if he should be a descendant of Bittersteel, there's no way to underestimate the most dangerous sellswords company of the Free cities, consisting of the sons of rebel Lords... PS: I think after their coming the balance around Deny will shift and men who are important now will become players of second impotance or die (Daario, Raznak, Belwas, Ben Plumm and so on)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 Well the young Grif wasn’t exactly the topic. Illirio showed too much interest and concern about him and this gives to us a ground for speculations but no more then that. On the other side Grif (or Jon Connington) while not appeared definitely not a minor player. First he is clearly on equal feet with Illirio. Grif may take Illirio suggestions via Haldon but he acts by his own will. Moreover by the matter of conversation between Illirio and Haldon we could see that Grif is indeed Illirio’s old friend and they definitely trust to each other and share vital information. Actually this means that instead of long known pair Varys/Illirio we have now trio Varys/Illirio/Grif. Besides if Young Grif-Aegon theory is true how would he prove his identity? Simple resemblance to Rhaegar wouldn’t work since valerian blood is not that rare in Free Cities. On the other side witness of Rhaegar’s only surviving friend former powerful lord and king’s Hand… And you mentioned other important thing as well. Dany at the beginning should be very suspicious at least to a member of hated Lannister family. And Jon Connington looks the only man who would be able to sway her opinion about Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bittersteel+ Posted August 19, 2007 Share Posted August 19, 2007 It seems that our points are not so different. I mean, it doesn't make much difference wether Griff + Lion means only 1 Griff or 1 Griff + 1 Griff (maybe Aegon). Both can be true, and we will discover that only after having read the book. The same with Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Yes it seems that we agree on this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bittersteel+ Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 Yes it seems that we agree on this point. But there are still two things in the prophecy which we cannot explain for sure. One is the Pale mare, the second is Mummer's dragon I believe, my explanation of a Pale mare as a friendly khalassar is an elegant one, but I fear it can have escaped GRRM's attention If it is so. I do not see any further logical possibilities. As for the mummer's dragon, well, it can't be fake Aegon if - like you suggest - fake Aegon is Young griff. Even if Young Griff is only Griff, I do not see any reasons to expect Aegon riding with the Golden Company... So why is GRRM using such a bold metapher as "mummer's dragon"? I can't imagine a Bittelsteel's descendent being a dragon of some mummer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 There are several things that we could not explain for sure until we will finally get the book by the reason that there are several possible explanation and we could not prove or disprove any of them. “Pale mare†could be reference to female Bittersteel descendant in GC taking into account Bittersteel arms. “Mummer’s dragon†should not necessary be fake. If real Aegon is alive he most probably was swapped by Varys and Varys is a mummer. It is the time to remember what Marwyn (by the way I agree that he should be a “crowâ€) quoted about nature of prophecies. This one is no different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bittersteel+ Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 There are several things that we could not explain for sure until we will finally get the book by the reason that there are several possible explanation and we could not prove or disprove any of them. “Pale mare†could be reference to female Bittersteel descendant in GC taking into account Bittersteel arms. “Mummer’s dragon†should not necessary be fake. If real Aegon is alive he most probably was swapped by Varys and Varys is a mummer. It is the time to remember what Marwyn (by the way I agree that he should be a “crowâ€) quoted about nature of prophecies. This one is no different. Yes, I thought about Pale mare - she-Bittersteel - and I rahter liked the idea. I'm only skeptical because you know Golden company is supposed to come with Quentin... And Doran Martell definitely doesn't know any other Targariens, or he would have simply married them to one of his children. That's why I prefered another explanation. Hope, the book comes soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted August 20, 2007 Share Posted August 20, 2007 So far we could prefer one or another explanation but as it was mentioned above couldn’t prove that the explanation we like the most is true. Quentin is not currently with GC but he will pass Volantis on his way (since he is POV and one of the ADWD chapter will take place in Volantis) and GC is heading the same way so they could meet and continue together. Or may be not… I only hope we will see the book next spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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