whats going on with Sansa?

[Alexia]

I think if he's underestimated anyone or anything, it's Sansa. He's not counting on her having already made a connection with another man.

This is his weak link -- he thinks Sansa is a blank slate, ripe for sexual imprinting. Little does he know that she's already been imprinted... :lol:

Please GRRM let him find out, please, please, please...

[Starbird]

This is his weak link -- he thinks Sansa is a blank slate, ripe for sexual imprinting. Little does he know that she's already been imprinted... :lol:

Please GRRM let him find out, please, please, please...

Imprinting just makes me think of the Twilight werewolves. :) But, yes, it would be awesome if LF found out (much as I like him, too). Do you think he'd ever kill Sansa? Would he give up on his fantasy and pull an "if I can't have her, no one can have her" type of thing? Would he succumb to rape? If he DOES find out, I think it would be when Sandor's actually there so no harm could come to Sansa.

[FacelessGirl]

Imprinting just makes me think of the Twilight werewolves. :) But, yes, it would be awesome if LF found out (much as I like him, too). Do you think he'd ever kill Sansa? Would he give up on his fantasy and pull an "if I can't have her, no one can have her" type of thing? Would he succumb to rape? If he DOES find out, I think it would be when Sandor's actually there so no harm could come to Sansa.

I firmly believe that LF's desires for Sansa will get the better of him. Hopefully, I repeat, hopefully Sandor will be there to take care of him for her.

[Alexia]

:stillsick:

You know, I heard about the Twilight imprinting. I haven't read any of the books. I watched the first movie with my husband, who rolled his eyes all the way through. The second movie by myself, and I rolled my eyes all the way through. I started in on the third movie, and turned it off in outraged disgust when he took the starter out of her car.

Anyway...

Yes, LF must learn of this to completely crush him before he dies. Only Sandor...?

[3LittleBirds]

:stillsick:

You know, I heard about the Twilight imprinting. I haven't read any of the books. I watched the first movie with my husband, who rolled his eyes all the way through. The second movie by myself, and I rolled my eyes all the way through. I started in on the third movie, and turned it off in outraged disgust when he took the starter out of her car.

Anyway...

Yes, LF must learn of this to completely crush him before he dies. Only Sandor...?

You know, we talk about creepers like Sandor and LF, but in Twilight, Edward and Jacob are absolutely abusive to Bella. Seriously, incredibly abusive...like, textbook. Yes, I have read the books. I'm a middle school librarian, it's practically a job requirement. They're abysmal and made me want to claw my eyes out. I have pretty much convinced the girls in my school that Katniss Everdeen from The Hunger Games is a waaaaay cooler role model. Even though she kills people. :D

/threadjack

Somebody in another thread wrote an awesome little thing...they took the scene where LF tells Lysa "Only Cat" before giving her the old heave-ho, and they rewrote it with Sansa saying "Only Sandor" before introducing LF to the Moon Door. It was pure genius.

[gonzoaster11]

I firmly believe that LF's desires for Sansa will get the better of him. Hopefully, I repeat, hopefully Sandor will be there to take care of him for her.

Didn't the Ghost of High Heart have a dream where Sansa slays a giant in the snow? Some have interpreted that as LF. Maybe she'll take out LF herself...

[3LittleBirds]

Didn't the Ghost of High Heart have a dream where Sansa slays a giant in the snow? Some have interpreted that as LF. Maybe she'll take out LF herself...

Yep, she did. And that would be sublime :D

Of course, there's more than one way to interpret anything in ASOIAF ;)

[Suldog]

Didn't the Ghost of High Heart have a dream where Sansa slays a giant in the snow? Some have interpreted that as LF. Maybe she'll take out LF herself...

I would like that. I love the idea of Sandor as Sansa's protector - her wolf, if you will - but I think it's important that she be able to take care of herself, too. And with LF it would be personal. He has lied to and manipulated her family, to their destruction, to serve his own desires. He set Sansa up for murder to help keep her under his control, and I am sure is using her to help poison Sweetrobin. He needs to be dealt with, and I hope she's the one to do it. After all, that's what Ned taught her. :)

[White Fang]

I don't remember this. Can you be more specific?

Who are these other world players? Varys? Illyrio? Stannis? Dany?

I'm not sure how much higher he could rise. He's already effectively the treasurer of Westeros. He could acquire more land and become a lord but he's right in the thick of things already. Also, the realm would suffer financially without him. No one else is as good as finding money when it's needed as LF.

I think if he's underestimated anyone or anything, it's Sansa. He's not counting on her having already made a connection with another man.

I get the feeling you think LF is cocky. I don't think he creates chaos in hopes of coming out on top. I think he creates chaos to give himself something to do. It's like practice for his various skills. If things get too quiet, there's no challenge for him.

That doesn't make him sound much better. Anyway, I thnk he definitely wants to be Hand, remember in FFC Jaime was speculating that he'd make a good one. Of course, to someone who didn't know how much he was manipulating events he would seem like a great choice, and he knows it, he just has to make sure that if he ever does become Hand, its under a weak king, like Tommen, so he could rule the same way Tywin did, even while he'd be Lord of the North, Vale and the Riverlands (if he hasn't added anything else to his power by then). But what I meant about him underestimating people is how do you think Roose Bolton is gonna take him trying to take over the North, through Sansa? There would definitely be a fight, and he's never commanded an army before, so he'd probably have to hand over control to one of the Lords of the Vale, and they already don't like him + it would make him look weak. But that's just the start. What if, instead of Harrenhal, he'd asked for Castle Clegane (you know, if Clegane was in a good strategic position)? He'd think that Gregor would just obey the Lannisters, but Gregor would probably hunt him down and cut him in two. Obviously he didn't ask for Clegane, but the point is he had no idea who was at Harrenhal. There might have been some tough as nails castellan, left over from whoever used to own it, who refused to give it up. But even sticking to characters we know exist, what do you think the borther hood without banners think of him? He's supposed to Lord of the Riverlands, but the Riverlands are the most messed up place in Weasteros. So it's a fair bet if they ever ran into him they'd test his neck strenghth, but has he ever even considered them at all? They're not a political threat to him in any way, they own no lands and have no money, but the small people love them, which is incredibly important, but he doesn't seem to care. What if anyone of his rivals in the Vale decides to remove him from power, like they've been continually threatening to do. Other than Lothor Brune, he doesn't really have anyone to physically protect him. What if Harry wants his inheritance to come early? I think he's about the right age to be politically aware. Or what if he doesn't want to marry Sansa, for what ever reason?

I think Varys could go either way, he wouldn't care how manipulative he's been, and it's a fair bet he does know pretty much everything he's done, but he would never let him harm the throne too much. Dany, it's kind of hard to tell, it depends how well he charms her, should she ever retakesthe throne. But then again, if she's got a good Hand at the time, someone she met before she took back the seven kingdoms, they'll probably suggest she get's rid of all the most powerful people in the realm, at least the one's who haven't directly helped her. So that's Littlefinger, Bolton, Mace Tyrell and Lannisters all finished and the lesser huses will take their places (the Cleaganes might become Warden's of the West) except in the North, where she might give the Starks back their power, again it depends how much she blames them for her father's downfall, though she might be sympathetic. Tyrion will definitely be after him, should he ever get back any power, since I reckon if he stops brooding he'll figure out that it was Littlfefinger who killed Joffrey (I mean, who else?). I do think you're right about Sansa, he's definitely understimated her and that will come back to sting him hard at one point, but my point is he's now in a position where there are people who won't care how much money he can offer them or how helpful he can be, they will just kill him either because they know they can't trust him, or because he's hurt them in the past. And some of these people may not even be people we've met or heard about, it's a big country, and he's upset a lot of it.

[brashcandy]

Blunder into true love: this is true. I find it sweet, though, that he's carried a torch for Cat all these years (assuming it's her and not the goal of getting her that keeps him going, that is). This is not to say that he's off the hook for the many horrible things he's orchestrated, however. Here's why I like LF as a character:

* he's intelligent. His success isn't an accident. He worked for it. If plan A doesn't work out, see plan B. If plan B fails, go to plan C. He's very good at deciphering what people really want. He's also very good at handling high-stress situations and changing his plans on the fly. (He turned Lysa's threatening of Sansa to his own advantage very quickly, even with Marillion there as a witness.)

* he's proactive. He hasn't sat around bemoaning his low birth, he's actively improved his station. Even after decades, he's still trying to get the girl.

* he's subtle. Oh, the crown wants Winterfell? Hey, I'll take one for the team and marry Sansa. Oh, I don't own any lands? Sure, haunted, broken-down Harrenhal is good enough for me, thanks. Oh, I'm still not good enough? I don't mind trekking up to the Vale to seduce annoying Lysa Arryn to join the war. No one suspects his end game.

* he's patient. The man has been working his plan most of his life. He watched Catelyn move north, marry Ned, produce 5 kids, and generally live her life without him, but he didn't give up. Also, see the point above. He doesn't cave to resistance, he doesn't pout, he just keeps working.

* his mistakes are few, his self-control is pretty incredible. Brushing back Sansa's hair at the Hand's Tourney was telling but he realized that and abruptly left.

* he chews mint/is well groomed. This is minor but after reading about the sour wine breath of many another character, he gets points for being minty fresh. (I love the Hound, of course, but he's got to stink most of the time.)

* he could be fun. That snowball scene with Sansa - love it. He's got his guard up most of the time but I sense a playful side, too. Most of the time he's like a boiling tea kettle with the stopper closed. Just seething for release.

* he does the dirty work. Lysa. Screaming. 'Nough said. :shudder: It's all about sticking to the plan, though.

So, pathetic? No. When I think of pathetic characters, I think of Cersei, Theon, Quentyn Martell. Brienne, to an extent. They just get in their own way. They should know better but they don't.

Is LF tragic? Sadly, yes, I think it's going to end up that way. LF's main motivation is to be good enough. He was stung by the rejection of his suit for Cat. Why should his low birth be held against him? He couldn't help his birth. (I think 'civil rights' and 'women's sufferage' and can understand his frustration.) He's done everything he could possibly do to be worthy, and what happens? Catelyn just doesn't feel the same way about him. Ouch. Of course, some of what he did to be worthy wasn't very nice, and that will be why his story has to end tragically. Someone with LF's sins on their karmic report card can't be allowed to triumph, and that makes me rather sad for him. I can see why others might disagree, though. What I'm seeing as 'young boy with hurt feelings,' others might see as 'entitled brat with a chip on his shoulder.'

Then there's the thing with Sansa. I rather enjoy his pervy creeping. (It's fiction so, hey, whatever.) Coming on to a teen girl isn't cool, of course, but I can sympathize with his desire to get the girl, even if by proxy. He's worked so hard and so long, I can't really blame him for trying to get Sansa to play the part that would make him so happy. (Again, it's fiction so, go for it, LF!) Even as he's trying to seduce Sansa, though, he holds back and plots and plans and thinks and waits. He's like a spring that's very tightly compressed. That pressure is going to find a release eventually but how? When? What will trigger it? That's what makes LF so compelling to me, and his need to be good enough makes me empathetic. I'll mourn his death when it happens even though he became corrupt by his efforts to deal with his awakening to the 'real world.' Sansa, in contrast, has remained relatively pure (so far). And that's why she will live and he will not. :(

Great, great post Starbird. You articulated perfectly just why LF is heinous, but definitely not pathetic. He is certainly a complex and calculating man, and I've never been able to admire him, but I do have to admit that he has some fantastically shrewd and practical qualities which have propelled him to the top.

I like what you said at the bottom too, that he and Sansa are actually contrasts. He started out with the same idealistic, naive view of the world and subsequently learned that low born boys do not marry high class girls. Likewise, Sansa has learnt that fairytales are often not realised in the real world. However, whilst LF became corrupt and hardened by the real world, we hope and think that Sansa will choose a more noble path. Similarly though, both Sansa and LF have suffered disappointments and betrayals in love. What I think will define Sansa, and has defined her is how she manages to change her outlook and redefine her expectations (i.e her romantic connection with Sandor.) As much as LF works against the system, we can argue that he is still very much a part of it. He's like the tragic character who has learnt that the system is cruel, but rather than completely break free, he works against it, whilst still believing in its principles. Like Caliban, railing against Prospero in The Tempest, but still believing in the power and knowledge of the master's books. When he throws Lysa out of the moon door, I actually think we got a good glimpse of the real LF. He is a hopeless romantic. He has never given up on that idea of Cat/real love, and this is what will doom him.

In terms of what he is planning, I put no limits on the scale of LF's pursuits. He could be planning to have Sansa as Queen, and himself as King consort or Hand. It's all about playing the games of thrones and this is the ultimate prize. Why play the game if you're not willing to try for the full winnings.

Oh and my one little crackpot for the day on the "giant theory". What if the giant that Sansa slays is not Ungregor or LF, but rather Tyrion. Remember Shae always called him my "giant of Lannister". ;)

[Starbird]

You know, we talk about creepers like Sandor and LF, but in Twilight, Edward and Jacob are absolutely abusive to Bella. Seriously, incredibly abusive...like, textbook. Yes, I have read the books. I'm a middle school librarian, it's practically a job requirement. They're abysmal and made me want to claw my eyes out. I have pretty much convinced the girls in my school that Katniss Everdeen from The Hunger Games is a waaaaay cooler role model. Even though she kills people. :D

/threadjack

Somebody in another thread wrote an awesome little thing...they took the scene where LF tells Lysa "Only Cat" before giving her the old heave-ho, and they rewrote it with Sansa saying "Only Sandor" before introducing LF to the Moon Door. It was pure genius.

I've read all the Twilight books & the Hunger Games trilogy. Sandor wasn't in any of them. And that's all that needs to be said about that. :laugh: 3LB, I'm jealous you're a librarian! :)

Uh, where were we? Oh, right, only Sandor . . . I still can't see Sansa engaging in a physical altercation with anyone. Has she ever, EVER raised a hand to anyone? She always tries to talk it out. Even when Sandor grabbed her in her room that night, she only tries to pull away, IIRC. She doesn't grab his hand or push his knife away. She doesn't shove Marillion off of her. She doesn't spank Sweetrobin. It would just be too out of character for her to suddenly heave LF out of the Moon Door or knock him off a precipice or something. Actually, this is something she has in common with LF. He's not a physical guy, either.

I've already ruled out poison, too. I noted somewhere in one of these San/San threads that Sansa can be quite outspoken when she wants to be. Poison is kind of a weakling's weapon. (Although LF choking on an amethyst would be ironic.)

I'm of the belief that Sansa WILL have something to do with LF's undoing and that LF WILL know it was her, most likely because she'll be standing there telling him about it. One of LF's first lessons to her is to keep her hands clean. Actually, maybe she won't kill him. Maybe she'll take him prisoner. I don't think she wants to be a murderer, even indirectly. She has a knack for making men want to do things for her. Maybe she inspires Lyn Corbray, et al to seize LF after revealing herself as a captive Sansa Stark. Maybe (!) she keeps LF hostage but uses him as a political advisor as she (somehow) rules from Winterfell, thereby forcing him to use his powers for the greater good. She benefits from his knowledge and perception. He's neutralized and punished. She isn't guilty of murder. I kind of like that idea . . .

[the Scorpion Knight]

I've read all the Twilight books & the Hunger Games trilogy. Sandor wasn't in any of them. And that's all that needs to be said about that. :laugh: 3LB, I'm jealous you're a librarian! :)

Uh, where were we? Oh, right, only Sandor . . . I still can't see Sansa engaging in a physical altercation with anyone. Has she ever, EVER raised a hand to anyone? She always tries to talk it out. Even when Sandor grabbed her in her room that night, she only tries to pull away, IIRC. She doesn't grab his hand or push his knife away. She doesn't shove Marillion off of her. She doesn't spank Sweetrobin. It would just be too out of character for her to suddenly heave LF out of the Moon Door or knock him off a precipice or something. Actually, this is something she has in common with LF. He's not a physical guy, either.

I've already ruled out poison, too. I noted somewhere in one of these San/San threads that Sansa can be quite outspoken when she wants to be. Poison is kind of a weakling's weapon. (Although LF choking on an amethyst would be ironic.)

I'm of the belief that Sansa WILL have something to do with LF's undoing and that LF WILL know it was her, most likely because she'll be standing there telling him about it. One of LF's first lessons to her is to keep her hands clean. Actually, maybe she won't kill him. Maybe she'll take him prisoner. I don't think she wants to be a murderer, even indirectly. She has a knack for making men want to do things for her. Maybe she inspires Lyn Corbray, et al to seize LF after revealing herself as a captive Sansa Stark. Maybe (!) she keeps LF hostage but uses him as a political advisor as she (somehow) rules from Winterfell, thereby forcing him to use his powers for the greater good. She benefits from his knowledge and perception. He's neutralized and punished. She isn't guilty of murder. I kind of like that idea . . .

or telling EVERYTHING he did(and a little more like tywins death )in front of the blackfish, jaime and brienne

his face would be priceless

[Alexia]

Telling the Blackfish about how he has been making her kiss him, that he threw her aunt out the Moon Door, and about his plans to poison the Sweetrobin would be pure awesome.

But I don't think it matters that poison is a weapon for weaklings... actually, I'd say it is a weapon for smart people. And in the words of Ser Grandfather, "this coward is about to kill you."

[Starbird]

Great, great post Starbird.

As much as LF works against the system, we can argue that he is still very much a part of it. He's like the tragic character who has learnt that the system is cruel, but rather than completely break free, he works against it, whilst still believing in its principles.

In terms of what he is planning, I put no limits on the scale of LF's pursuits. He could be planning to have Sansa as Queen, and himself as King consort or Hand. It's all about playing the games of thrones and this is the ultimate prize. Why play the game if you're not willing to try for the full winnings.

Oh and my one little crackpot for the day on the "giant theory". What if the giant that Sansa slays is not Ungregor or LF, but rather Tyrion. Remember Shae always called him my "giant of Lannister". ;)

Thanks, brashcandy! :cheers:

I wouldn't say LF works against the system, he just works the system. LF stooped to the system's level. Sansa will retain her integrity. That's the difference in their trajectories, I think.

You could be right that he's setting himself up to be king or consort or otherwise top-guy-on-the-totem-pole. Why not, really? He's been climbing since day 1. Ambition is his hobby.

Why slay Tyrion, though? I could see him and Sansa being mutually respectful rulers of their separate kingdoms or whatever. I don't sense any bitterness between them. Rather, she sees his kindness and he sees her kindness . . . Not a lovefest but harmony-from-a-distance or some such, surely?

[Starbird]

or telling EVERYTHING he did(and a little more like tywins death )in front of the blackfish, jaime and brienne

his face would be priceless

Telling the Blackfish about how he has been making her kiss him, that he threw her aunt out the Moon Door, and about his plans to poison the Sweetrobin would be pure awesome.

But I don't think it matters that poison is a weapon for weaklings... actually, I'd say it is a weapon for smart people. And in the words of Ser Grandfather, "this coward is about to kill you."

Maybe but LF is surely aware the Blackfish is out there and he may very well be up-to-date on Jaime and Brienne, too. I would be stunned if any of the 3 of them showed up and LF didn't have a story prepared.

[Alexia]

Maybe but LF is surely aware the Blackfish is out there and he may very well be up-to-date on Jaime and Brienne, too. I would be stunned if any of the 3 of them showed up and LF didn't have a story prepared.

I couldn't possibly see how he could know anything about Jaime and Brienne.

As for the Blackfish, he surely has a story prepared and he needs BF's support behind Sansa to really use her to reclaim the Tully/Stark lands. That being said, Sansa could blow him out of the water any time she chose simply by telling the BF what LF has been up to. I bet the BF would love to know about LF's shenanigans...

[Ishuäl]

Didn't the Ghost of High Heart have a dream where Sansa slays a giant in the snow? Some have interpreted that as LF. Maybe she'll take out LF herself...

It is my firm belief that that prophecy has already come true when Sansa ripped apart Sweetrobin's giant doll when he used it to destroy her snow Winterfell. Prophecies don't always have to be significant. Point and case. :fencing:

[the Scorpion Knight]

Maybe but LF is surely aware the Blackfish is out there and he may very well be up-to-date on Jaime and Brienne, too. I would be stunned if any of the 3 of them showed up and LF didn't have a story prepared.

would the story stop ANY of them from killing him?

(ok maybe briennebut ), sansa is telling them he's responsible for the deaths of one's father & the fate of his brother,

the other that he murded his nice( not to mention he knows since a little kid ).

[3LittleBirds]

I've read all the Twilight books & the Hunger Games trilogy. Sandor wasn't in any of them. And that's all that needs to be said about that. :laugh: 3LB, I'm jealous you're a librarian! :)

Uh, where were we? Oh, right, only Sandor . . . I still can't see Sansa engaging in a physical altercation with anyone. Has she ever, EVER raised a hand to anyone? She always tries to talk it out. Even when Sandor grabbed her in her room that night, she only tries to pull away, IIRC. She doesn't grab his hand or push his knife away. She doesn't shove Marillion off of her. She doesn't spank Sweetrobin. It would just be too out of character for her to suddenly heave LF out of the Moon Door or knock him off a precipice or something. Actually, this is something she has in common with LF. He's not a physical guy, either.

I've already ruled out poison, too. I noted somewhere in one of these San/San threads that Sansa can be quite outspoken when she wants to be. Poison is kind of a weakling's weapon. (Although LF choking on an amethyst would be ironic.)

I'm of the belief that Sansa WILL have something to do with LF's undoing and that LF WILL know it was her, most likely because she'll be standing there telling him about it. One of LF's first lessons to her is to keep her hands clean. Actually, maybe she won't kill him. Maybe she'll take him prisoner. I don't think she wants to be a murderer, even indirectly. She has a knack for making men want to do things for her. Maybe she inspires Lyn Corbray, et al to seize LF after revealing herself as a captive Sansa Stark. Maybe (!) she keeps LF hostage but uses him as a political advisor as she (somehow) rules from Winterfell, thereby forcing him to use his powers for the greater good. She benefits from his knowledge and perception. He's neutralized and punished. She isn't guilty of murder. I kind of like that idea . . .

Can you imagine a character like Sandor in YA fic? LMAO, it would be hysterical...*imagining Sandor/Bella* :lmao:

But as far as Sansa goes...IDK, she had that moment where she wanted to push Joffrey, you know. It seems to me like she's got hidden reserves of badassness. But in all reality, you're probably right...she's just not that physical of a person. I do think LF has to die, though. I'd imagine it will either be with the poison from the hairnet, or via Sansa's agent (Sandor, Blackfish, Bronze Yohn Royce, Brienne maybe). I think he's too dangerous to keep alive, even if Sansa does become a master at the game of thrones. She'd never be able to trust him completely, so he's got to go.

[Starbird]

That doesn't make him sound much better. Anyway, I thnk he definitely wants to be Hand, remember in FFC Jaime was speculating that he'd make a good one. Of course, to someone who didn't know how much he was manipulating events he would seem like a great choice, and he knows it, he just has to make sure that if he ever does become Hand, its under a weak king, like Tommen, so he could rule the same way Tywin did, even while he'd be Lord of the North, Vale and the Riverlands (if he hasn't added anything else to his power by then). But what I meant about him underestimating people is how do you think Roose Bolton is gonna take him trying to take over the North, through Sansa? There would definitely be a fight, and he's never commanded an army before, so he'd probably have to hand over control to one of the Lords of the Vale, and they already don't like him + it would make him look weak. But that's just the start. What if, instead of Harrenhal, he'd asked for Castle Clegane (you know, if Clegane was in a good strategic position)? He'd think that Gregor would just obey the Lannisters, but Gregor would probably hunt him down and cut him in two. Obviously he didn't ask for Clegane, but the point is he had no idea who was at Harrenhal. There might have been some tough as nails castellan, left over from whoever used to own it, who refused to give it up. But even sticking to characters we know exist, what do you think the borther hood without banners think of him? He's supposed to Lord of the Riverlands, but the Riverlands are the most messed up place in Weasteros. So it's a fair bet if they ever ran into him they'd test his neck strenghth, but has he ever even considered them at all? They're not a political threat to him in any way, they own no lands and have no money, but the small people love them, which is incredibly important, but he doesn't seem to care. What if anyone of his rivals in the Vale decides to remove him from power, like they've been continually threatening to do. Other than Lothor Brune, he doesn't really have anyone to physically protect him. What if Harry wants his inheritance to come early? I think he's about the right age to be politically aware. Or what if he doesn't want to marry Sansa, for what ever reason?

I think Varys could go either way, he wouldn't care how manipulative he's been, and it's a fair bet he does know pretty much everything he's done, but he would never let him harm the throne too much. Dany, it's kind of hard to tell, it depends how well he charms her, should she ever retakesthe throne. But then again, if she's got a good Hand at the time, someone she met before she took back the seven kingdoms, they'll probably suggest she get's rid of all the most powerful people in the realm, at least the one's who haven't directly helped her. So that's Littlefinger, Bolton, Mace Tyrell and Lannisters all finished and the lesser huses will take their places (the Cleaganes might become Warden's of the West) except in the North, where she might give the Starks back their power, again it depends how much she blames them for her father's downfall, though she might be sympathetic. Tyrion will definitely be after him, should he ever get back any power, since I reckon if he stops brooding he'll figure out that it was Littlfefinger who killed Joffrey (I mean, who else?). I do think you're right about Sansa, he's definitely understimated her and that will come back to sting him hard at one point, but my point is he's now in a position where there are people who won't care how much money he can offer them or how helpful he can be, they will just kill him either because they know they can't trust him, or because he's hurt them in the past. And some of these people may not even be people we've met or heard about, it's a big country, and he's upset a lot of it.

Well, just because Jaime thinks it doesn't mean LF wants it, although it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility. Also, LF hasn't been hampered by working under stronger kings. I'm not saying Robert was the best king ever but he wasn't an 8-year-old, either.

Roose Bolton

appears to have a tenuous hold on Winterfell at best. And now that Theon and Jeyne are gone and presumably free to tell the truth about her not being Arya Strak to anyone who will listen . . . Well, I think the Boltons' hold on Winterfell is about at an end.

I'm not sure why you're suggesting the BWB, etc. would be enemies of LF's. LF has been exceedingly careful to remain behind the scenes. Ned sent Berric Dondarrion out to rein in the Mountain before his death, obviously, so BD would not have been in KL to witness LF's part in Ned's arrest. I do agree that Varys is a threat but the common people? They wouldn't be privy to anything incriminating against him. Didn't LF broker the marriage between Margeary and Joffrey? Without him, their girl's not on the throne so he's done them a service. The Lannisters don't know (yet) that he's absconded with Sansa. Tyrion knows he's slippery but can he actually pin a crime to him? (Tyrion may resent being framed for Joffrey's murder so, yeah, that may be a sticking point should he ever learn of it.)

LF will never lead troops. That's not his style. His weapons are coin, suggestion, misdirection . . .