whats going on with Sansa?

[Candor]

Well, who sent you to rain on my parade, Raksha!

I think they're in love. Madly, deeply, crazy in love (cue Beyonce shaking hips)

Seriously, you don't have to know you're in love to be in love. Especially with Sansa, we see how she thought she loved Joffrey only to find out that this was a childish infatuation with someone whom she barely knew. Arguably, Sansa knows the Hound very very well. She knows the truth about his burns, the fact that he's afraid of fire, and not really craven, and that he loathes his brother. She knows he has a sensitive core behind all the violent rantings as evidenced when he cries when she sings to him. All in all, she knows all his complexities and his contradictions. She certainly knows him a lot better than the Lannisters do, and he's been working for them for years. But, because everything the Hound represents is so alien to her sensibilities, it is impossible for her to process it as love.

I won't get into how Sandor has blatantly shown his love for her - the rescues, the stalkings it's all love. When he offers to take her away and says that no one could hurt her because he'd kill them, I can't fathom what else this could be indicating. He's not offering to be kind, or to simply do a good deed. It's not the same with Arya when he was trying to get her back home in the hopes of getting money or employment or simply to get in the good graces of the Starks; he wants to take Sansa away as his woman and kill anyone who dares to meddle with them. Mind you, this is after all his chidings about how she's a silly little bird living in a dream world. Yup, he loves her. And as for their relationship not being healthy, I would tend to agree that it didn't start out that way for sure, but I really do think that by the time he leaves it's come to a much healthier place, and should continue to evolve in that direction.

Had to reply just to do this: :agree:

hehe

[LadyoftheNorth72]

This is a paragraph from Sansa (as Alayne) that I have never seen discussed, but which I find very intriguing. It follows immediately after LF's meeting with the Lords Declarant:

"He bewitched them, Alayne thought as she lay abed that night listening to the wind howl outside her windows. She could not have said the suspicion came from, but once it crossed her mind it would not let her sleep. She tossed and turned, worrying at it like a dog at some old bone. Finally, she rose and dressed herself, leaving Gretchel to her dreams."

(Sansa dresses and goes to find LF to ask him what will happen in a year)

" The candlelight was dancing in his eyes. 'Ser Lyn will remain my implacable enemy. He will speak of me with scorn and loathing to every man he meets, and lend his sword to every secret plot to bring me down.'

That was when her suspicion turned to certainty."

Okay, so my apologies if this has been discussed before, but I have not found it. Sansa has become convinced that LF has some sort of supernatural powers. Are we to dismiss this as the imagination of a young girl who has seen political manouverings she does not fully comprehend? Or is this a very GRRM way if telling us that there is more to LF than has so far met the reader's eye? Certainly some of his abilities to predict outcomes and influence people have seemed almost supernatural from the start. And then there is the fact that he and Varys seem to more or less leave each other alone, despite the fact that they seem to be working at cross purposes for the most part.

Is LF some sort of wizard or seer? We don't really know what he was doing in the years between his ass whipping by Brandon, and his first posting to court. He has this magical touch with coin and with rising to power. What if he spent those years learning interesting and handy skills that now assist him in his superhuman ways of knowing things others do not know, winning friends and influencing people, etc.

[brashcandy]

I never took the word "bewitched" so literally. I think Sansa was just awestruck that LF could move things into his favour so easily, when all the odds had been stacked against him. Later he goes on to tell her that once you know what people want you can control them, and all Ser Lyn wants is gold and boys. From what we've seen of LF, he clearly relies on the manipulation of others to get what he wants, and he's just a superior reader of others' motivations. So I would vote no on the sorcery, although I am sure that LF is familiar with all these types of things. He probably knows something of how they work, but I doubt he is a practitioner of these arts.

[1234567]

The line worried at it like a dog with a bone, got my attention though.

[brashcandy]

The line worried at it like a dog with a bone, got my attention though.

GRRM loves to throw us these little hints ;)

[little_horn]

Seriously, you don't have to know you're in love to be in love. Especially with Sansa, we see how she thought she loved Joffrey only to find out that this was a childish infatuation with someone whom she barely knew. Arguably, Sansa knows the Hound very very well. She knows the truth about his burns, the fact that he's afraid of fire, and not really craven, and that he loathes his brother. She knows he has a sensitive core behind all the violent rantings as evidenced when he cries when she sings to him. All in all, she knows all his complexities and his contradictions. She certainly knows him a lot better than the Lannisters do, and he's been working for them for years. But, because everything the Hound represents is so alien to her sensibilities, it is impossible for her to process it as love.

I won't get into how Sandor has blatantly shown his love for her - the rescues, the stalkings it's all love. When he offers to take her away and says that no one could hurt her because he'd kill them, I can't fathom what else this could be indicating. He's not offering to be kind, or to simply do a good deed. It's not the same with Arya when he was trying to get her back home in the hopes of getting money or employment or simply to get in the good graces of the Starks; he wants to take Sansa away as his woman and kill anyone who dares to meddle with them. Mind you, this is after all his chidings about how she's a silly little bird living in a dream world. Yup, he loves her. And as for their relationship not being healthy, I would tend to agree that it didn't start out that way for sure, but I really do think that by the time he leaves it's come to a much healthier place, and should continue to evolve in that direction.

I agree with this~! She is also always hinting that it's just his words and the way he speaks to her that scares her. She does say he straight up scares her but in their scenes together she is usually fine with his presence (except for she can't look at his face, even though he's not even the ugliest guy she's seen, that's Tyrion!) until he says something mean, then freaks her out.

[little_horn]

Is LF some sort of wizard or seer? We don't really know what he was doing in the years between his ass whipping by Brandon, and his first posting to court. He has this magical touch with coin and with rising to power. What if he spent those years learning interesting and handy skills that now assist him in his superhuman ways of knowing things others do not know, winning friends and influencing people, etc.

IDK about magic but he is Bravosi (sp?) heritage, so he might have all kinds if cool secret knowledge (like poisons? ).

[FanTasy]

I just read the scene. I think it is just what it says: Sansa understands how Littlefinger played his cards and manipulated, in her words 'bewitched' the Lords Declarant. He bribed one of them to deliberately express anger at the conference and show his blade, and by doing that this guy (I forget his name) shamed his fellow Lords Declarant, disrespecting that Littlefinger treated them as guests.

A smooth trick that gives Littlefinger a full year to manipulate everyone into the position he wants them to be.

Sansa now knows how it is played, the game of thrones.

[Skeksi]

LF fans mystify me -- he's such a pathetic character yet some find him tragic. :uhoh:

I don't find him tragic. I find him awesome :P Yeah, yeah, morally terrible, etc. But awesome.

* he's intelligent. His success isn't an accident. He worked for it. If plan A doesn't work out, see plan B. If plan B fails, go to plan C. He's very good at deciphering what people really want. He's also very good at handling high-stress situations and changing his plans on the fly. (He turned Lysa's threatening of Sansa to his own advantage very quickly, even with Marillion there as a witness.)

* he's proactive. He hasn't sat around bemoaning his low birth, he's actively improved his station. Even after decades, he's still trying to get the girl.

* he's subtle. Oh, the crown wants Winterfell? Hey, I'll take one for the team and marry Sansa. Oh, I don't own any lands? Sure, haunted, broken-down Harrenhal is good enough for me, thanks. Oh, I'm still not good enough? I don't mind trekking up to the Vale to seduce annoying Lysa Arryn to join the war. No one suspects his end game.

* he's patient. The man has been working his plan most of his life. He watched Catelyn move north, marry Ned, produce 5 kids, and generally live her life without him, but he didn't give up. Also, see the point above. He doesn't cave to resistance, he doesn't pout, he just keeps working. * his mistakes are few, his self-control is pretty incredible. Brushing back Sansa's hair at the Hand's Tourney was telling but he realized that and abruptly left.

* he chews mint/is well groomed. This is minor but after reading about the sour wine breath of many another character, he gets points for being minty fresh. (I love the Hound, of course, but he's got to stink most of the time.)

* he could be fun. That snowball scene with Sansa - love it. He's got his guard up most of the time but I sense a playful side, too. Most of the time he's like a boiling tea kettle with the stopper closed. Just seething for release.

* he does the dirty work. Lysa. Screaming. 'Nough said. :

I agree with pretty much all of this... not so much the part about loving the Hound, but everything else :P And definitely, there is no underestimating the power of minty freshness. Sansa may not be appreciating it now, but if she ends up with someone with bad breath, she's going to at least miss the mintiness... (NB: I jest. For Sansa's sake, I'd kind of prefer for her not to end up with LF, Sandor or Tyrion- there's various squicky dimensions to her encounters with each of them, IMO...)

[Candor]

I never took the word "bewitched" so literally. I think Sansa was just awestruck that LF could move things into his favour so easily, when all the odds had been stacked against him. Later he goes on to tell her that once you know what people want you can control them, and all Ser Lyn wants is gold and boys. From what we've seen of LF, he clearly relies on the manipulation of others to get what he wants, and he's just a superior reader of others' motivations. So I would vote no on the sorcery, although I am sure that LF is familiar with all these types of things. He probably knows something of how they work, but I doubt he is a practitioner of these arts.

This ^^

Though it would be amusing to see him fussing over a cauldron or something. Probably trying to brew up a love potion so that he can get less dutiful kisses from his "daughter." :ack:

LF: Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and caldron bubble!

*stirs cauldron menacingly*

*Sansa walks in*

Sansa: Whatcha making?

LF: Porridge.

Sansa: You told me you hated porridge.

LF: ....Always do what they never expect. like make you porridge that has love potion in it. Soon, my precious, soooooon.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

Sansa now knows how it is played, the game of thrones.

There is a question bugging me that makes me doubt both Sansa's supposed growth in the areas of perceptiveness and political acuity.

Why has it not occurred to her to ask (even if only in her own mind) WHY LF chose a method of murdering Joff that was pretty much guaranteed to convince half the kingdom that she is a murderer too?

I mean, she is supposedly coming to realize LF's nature, and how he foresees every possible outcome of a situation and plans accordingly. If I were her, I would be wanting to know just exactly how I have been "rescued" when all that has really happened is I have been transferred from one prison to another. If she is so bright and learning/maturing so fast, it really should have crossed her mind that it was part of LF's plan all along to remove her from being completely under the Lannister's thumb, to being completely under his own ...except the danger she is in is now far greater, being wanted for regicide.

I understand that she might not want to come right out and demand an answer about this, given that she has seen how he deals with females who don't know when to shut up ...but shouldn't it at least have occurred to her that her position has been made considerably more dangerous thanks to her new loving dad?

[PrinceHenryris]

I've skipped several pages of this thread, but if Sandor Clegane shows up with bad intentions that seem good at first, he and Sansa will walk out unscathed.

What can LittleFinger say when Sandor has his sword at LF's throat?

[voodooqueen126]

I've skipped several pages of this thread, but if Sandor Clegane shows up with bad intentions that seem good at first, he and Sansa will walk out unscathed.

What can LittleFinger say when Sandor has his sword at LF's throat?

Well Sandor showing up and telling her that Littlefinger betrayed her father (Sandor was there), along with Jeyne Poole's time in Littlefinger's brothel being revealed.... The only thing remaining is for some one to tell her that it was Littlefinger who told her mother that Tyrion sent assassin's after Bran.

[FanTasy]

Why has it not occurred to her to ask (even if only in her own mind) WHY LF chose a method of murdering Joff that was pretty much guaranteed to convince half the kingdom that she is a murderer too?

I understand that she might not want to come right out and demand an answer about this, given that she has seen how he deals with females who don't know when to shut up ...but shouldn't it at least have occurred to her that her position has been made considerably more dangerous thanks to her new loving dad?

I think she knows. Not just how the game is played by Littlefinger, but how she must play it, to survive. She has figured out already that Littlefinger did not help her in situations where others (The Hound) did something.

[voodooqueen126]

I think she knows. Not just how the game is played by Littlefinger, but how she must play it, to survive. She has figured out already that Littlefinger did not help her in situations where others (The Hound) did something.

Or what FanTasy says: She knows that Littlefinger never helped her and murdered her aunt... but since she doesn't have magical assassins in her debt, a direwolf, a greenseer friend and isn't a great warg, nor does she have an army (or any friends for that matter) she really has no choice but to go along with Littlefinger.

[Horza]

He kinda tipped his hand with respect to that by feathering Dontos and setting his body alight in front of her. She has to be an asset to him until she can work out how to start playing for herself.

[FanTasy]

I find it very sad that Sansa learns that people only want her for her claim to Winterfell. She learned that from Joffrey and by being married to Tyrion, she learned that from the Queen of Thorns and now she learned it from Littlefinger.

She thought that Loras liked her but she learned from him that he did not even remember given her a red rose at the Hand's tournament.

She learned that Ser Dontos did not save her because he was her Florian but because he could sell her for gold.

Those were hard lessons.

I was very glad Sansa was saved by Lothar Brune from that smooth talking Marillion at the Fingers, but Brune was acting on orders from his boss.

Sansa's only experiences after she was separated from her family with someone who seems to like her not for her claim, who did things to protect her without being ordered so, were with the Hound. I think that is why she 'remembers' him kissing her in their scene after his desertion from the Blackwater.

[voodooqueen126]

I now think there is hope for Sansa!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_St._Leger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_of_York,_Duchess_of_Exeter

[GeoDave]

Her arc words seem to be "life is not a song". I'd like her to get a happy ending worthy of one.

She may get one, only if she does not agree to Littlefinger's idea of getting rid of Robin.

[Woman of War]

That depends of what a happy ending might be. If this were acquired wisdom, the ability to take responsibility for her own life, learning to look after herself.......simply doing her own laundry, her own cooking, being independent of servants, yes that would be some achievement. This would as well mean taking moral responsibility for her own actions, not being any longer in need to be saved or protected - in short, growing up and finding a place of her own in the world.

In a world like Westeros and in a story like Martin's this can only happen through ugly experiences and suffering, she will not be spared the evil things that happen to all of Martin's female protagonists - otherwise it would be kitsch or heavy cartoon irony from Martin' s side. Sansa's character anyway is bordering to overstep into fairytale ingenue, I believe in the following story development Martin will set this right.

There is this wonderful Cersei quotation about nine parts mess and one part happiness, which turns out to be the messiest part. So even if Sansa should find a love interest within the boundaries of this story she will be far, far away from a happy ending. And surely that brute who had a knife at her throat and fantazised about raping and killing her instead of leaving her for another man does not sound promising for her future. Let's hope that he never ever again gets close to her, this cries domestic violence.